9:01am
Nabors: Good morning to everyone.
(Partial test recording being played and discussion)
Nabors: Welcome to all of you. We’re thankful that all of you made a safe journey to Cleveland. I know that, I know some of you got in late last night. A couple of our brothers from Africa, I believe, got into Chattanooga at about midnight last night. Uh, we had one other of our African brothers that is in Atlanta now. Uh, Brother Bo Lewis is picking him up. They, he’ll be here just as soon as they can drive the distance. And, uh, he’ll be in momentarily, I’m sure. Uh, it’s been asked that I made just a few announcements before we get, uh, the meeting opened. I think all of you remember us being here last year after the Assembly. The restrooms are off to my left, uh, in the, in the corner. And you’re welcome to use the men’s and the women’s since it’s just us men here. Uh, of course, this will be up to the Overseers after I leave, but I’ve been asked to make this announcement, that they’ve asked that no individual tape players be used, that’s, some of the Overseers have asked that. That will be up to the moderator and your meeting when you begin. Also, Brother Grant has been asked to operate the, uh, tape player for the record. And we have asked temporarily, to begin the meeting, for Brother Hawkins to be the secretary for the beginning of what we’re doing now. Then it will be up to this meeting, when a moderator is chosen, it will be up to this body then to, to select a permanent record keeper. But for these preliminaries, we’ve asked him to fill in for that. Also, also, uh, I’m sure you’ve already availed yourself to it, but there’s coffee, snacks and soft drinks in this refrigerator. And I don’t know how much you will avail yourselves to that. That’s between you and your personal commitment you’ve made to the Lord. I’m sure there will be, uh, a lot of time given to prayer. Uh, Sister Jackie has these, uh, foam rubber kneeling pads that you’re welcome to use. It’ll save your knees somewhat when you begin to kneel. There should be—go ahead and pass those out, to those who need them—there should be enough for every person that’s here to use, if you would like. Okay. I believe it would be good if we would begin with prayer, uh, in this session this morning.
Dupre: (not at microphone) Can I say something?... Concerned…before we officially open this meeting. I’ve had several calls from pastors in North Carolina. And the arrangements…of how we were arranging for this meeting and various other questions. And as overseer I’ve tried to answer those questions. Also I’ve had people, ministers from across the United States that have called me as chairman of the Counseling Committee.
(Brother Dupre was asked to come to the microphone)
Dupre: I don’t know how it’s been for the other Overseers, but for myself, I’ve had several pastors as well as ministers in my state that has, uh, that has been concerned about the arrangement of this meeting relative to the Assembly mandates. Also, across the United States I’ve had ministers call me as chairman of the Counseling Committee as to the arrangements that have gotten out on the field as to how this meeting is… I’ve found that there have been some misinformation, as well as some genuine concerns. So, I, I began to study the Assembly mandates for this particular meeting, and what I have discovered is, the mandate for this meeting was that the office of the General Overseer was vacated. And that communicated to the Presbytery and arrangements for us to be here made, which has satisfied the Assembly mandate for this meeting. I’ve, I’ve tried to dig a little deeper so I could answer the questions that were coming to me. And the only model that I found that in some way modeled this particular meeting was that in 1943, and the minutes of that meeting I’ve read several times. And it appears to me that once the mandate of the announcement has been made of the office being vacated, and the Overseers brought in, that the organizing of that should be—at that point, once we get here—the organizing of that should be left up to the Presbytery. And that all others should vacate the meeting.
(Interruption for microphones being added to the room and testing of the new microphones)
Dupre: My comments here is not to reflect negatively on anybody, and I certainly, I certainly respect the appointments of all who have been appointed, but I feel in order to preserve the integrity of this particular meeting, that we should have the privilege as the Presbytery to organize ourselves. And then invite into the meeting those that we may need to help us with any information. I certainly cannot go back to North Carolina and feel as though I have done my duty, and know that I have been faithful to the confidences of the people that they have placed in me as their Overseer. I have no personal vendetta or grudge against Brother Nabors—he and I have worked together a lot of years. But this is some of the biggest business we’ll ever do for The Church of God and I think that it is incumbent upon us to do it the way the General Assembly has stated. If you’ll check the language of the ’43 meeting, the understanding of that is, uh, is given by the fact that all who spoke at that meeting who were not Presbytery members did so by permission of the Presbytery. And I feel like since we have already had an announcement via the e-mail as well as by written letter that we should be allowed to organize ourselves from this point on and then invite anyone else that we may need to come into this meeting. To me, that would satisfy the mandate of the General Assembly, protect the integrity of the Presbytery, and satisfy the confidences of our people. I am not comfortable for us to proceed from this point any further unless is just the Presbytery that is present. I speak only to the concerns that have been presented to me and I do know that things can be taken out of context… And so I feel that’s why it’s necessary for us to strictly abide by what has been mandated by the General Assembly. And I believe if the Presbytery would desire to have Brother Nabors come in, the Administrative Committee come in, or any other person that we feel we need to come in to help us, we could decide that as the Presbytery and that would satisfy the concerns of… I don’t think it’s in the heart of anyone to, to want to go beyond that point. But we can be very innocent and still be guilty of not satisfying the mandates of the General Assembly. And I certainly would not be comfortable at this point to proceed until we are, we have vacated the building of everyone other than the Presbytery. And that’s why I’ve asked to address this body, Brother Nabors. If there are others who have concerns, I think it’s fair that they share those concerns. Uh, I think, uh, if we, if we take the time to study the ‘43 meeting, so it may seem vague in some areas. (Repeat for interpreter) It may seem vague in some areas. But it is not vague in the area where people spoke that were not a part of the Presbytery. Those people spoke, according to the record, by permission of the Presbytery. And I think if there’s any information that we need, I certainly would be open for anyone to be invited in here… But I feel like it’s very important that we organize ourselves in order to meet the mandate of the General Assembly, which means we are free to talk among ourselves as to who will be the recording secretary and who will be the moderator. We can have an opening prayer as a Presbytery. Uh, it’s not necessary for anyone other than the Presbytery to be here for this… And then we can be able to invite anyone that we want into this meeting. This is my feelings and I want to share them with the Presbytery and, even though we’ve not officially begun this meeting, we have a responsibility to share our feelings as we understand them… Thank you, brethren.
S. Smith: I guess for the tape recording I should identify myself. Stephen Smith, Overseer of Virginia/West Virginia. I’ve had similar concerns that have been brought to me and my focus has been upon the present ruling that we have, and the ruling is very plain that it is the Presbytery that is to meet and go through this process. I know that our people around this country—and no doubt around the world—this very moment are on their knees asking God to help us. And they’re depending upon us to be faithful and I feel like we would be betraying their trust if we don’t strictly adhere to that recommendation. And I feel as Brother Dupre, it may be necessary in our conversation to invite others to come in and give information, but we are accountable to our people and they’re going to want to know that we did this exactly the way that they’ve authorized us to do it. And so I, I also ask that we begin here with just the Presbytery until we can select our uh, uh, secretary and our moderator and then we can certainly open it up to…
Acosta: Blessings to all my brothers. It’s a privilege to be in the midst of the Presbytery. I have told some of my brothers that I have a lot of fear in coming to this reunion, or this meeting because these businesses are, are very historic in The Church of God. This depends on us being The Church of God and what identifies The Church of God, the business and the doctrine and the government. There’s millions of the Hispanics all over the world that are praying. I believe that right now even in Honduras there is about 2,000 people on their knees praying to God, so that we don’t leave the pattern that God has left for His Church. We have to unite ourselves in the business that’s been written down by the General Assembly. If we leave the business we are not worthy to be ministers in The Church of God. The pattern has been made. And I’ve been telling some of my brethren that if we leave the doctrine or go outside the books we would never be able to stand before the world and show them the business of The Church of God. And what I think, I believe that the Presbytery has to, uh, uh, choose the moderator, and only the Presbytery can do that. And that’s what I think, this morning.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri, and I’d like to second…
Voice: That’s not a motion
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri, and to save some time, I’d just like to say amen to what Brother Dupre has said, Brother Smith, and this brother. I feel like the, uh, Assembly guidelines have already been set and this should be the Presbytery’s responsibility.
Wilda: Jerry Wilda from the Northwest Region, and, uh, I feel in compliance with the structure of the Church as it is now, that in 1943 we did not have an Administrative Assistant. And I think under the present structure of the Church that we would be well within the mandates of the General Assembly for that Administrative Assistant to start this meeting and help us to moderate while we select. The moderator at this point would have no voice as far as the selection, and after the Presbytery makes the selection if the Presbytery would feel that it was tainted by the presence of the Administrative Assistant we could address that issue at that time. And the meeting would not officially begin until after we have selected the moderator and that person to, and another person to keep the records and at that time the meeting would begin. That’s my feeling.
Neal: Carl Jr., Neal, Overseer of South Carolina. I’d like to thank the Lord for being able to be here today, although I wish things could’ve been different and kept our General Overseer in his position… I’m afraid that the things I look back upon in the Church of God of Prophecy would catch up with us here if we don’t get a hold of the Spirit of God, and humble ourselves… I was surprised to find the security guard, howbeit a member of the Church, checking ID’s or names before we come in the building. I, I don’t see any of my brethren causing trouble… But I just don’t feel like that there were gonna be riots up here on the hill. And if it was to truly secure the room for nobody but the Overseers, the Presbytery, then that’s all that should be in this room, is the Presbytery. My feelings are as some men’s already stated. We’ve got precious brethren and sisteren praying this morning with all their hearts. And I believe that not only we as Presbytery, but also the members of the Church…at this historic moment… must walk softly before Him. It’s not only our duty as the Presbytery to beg God for His help and mercy and to say, “God, it’s your Church and you’re the God of this thing.” And if somebody needs to be set up, then His Holy Spirit will… And if somebody needs to be put down, He’s the God of it all. And I believe He has the power to do it today. Sin will not prevail. And the soul that sinneth shall surely die. I want to humble myself before God and say, “God, you pick the man. You put your Spirit upon him.” And I surrender to God today, and to my brethren here. We are the Presbytery, and the Presbytery should go from right now forward. Then we can call whoever we want to. God bless you.
S. Smith: I’ll try to be very quick and give this to Brother Dupre. Stephen Smith, again. It seems it would be well to read the Assembly ruling. And I appreciate Brother Wilda’s concern. And, Brother Wilda, maybe I’m overlooking a ruling here, and if you know of a ruling that I’ve overlooked, please, please bring that to our attention. But as I read it here from the 84th Assembly Minutes, page 131, “Be it resolved that in the event of a vacancy in the office of the General Overseer, the three Field Secretaries are to carry on the administrative work, (repeat for translator) the three Field Secretaries are to carry on the administrative work of the Church until the State and National Overseers could meet to choose a General Overseer to serve until the next General Assembly.” And this is our mandate: State and National Overseers. And I beg of you, let’s be faithful to what the General Assembly has ruled for us to do.
Dupre: My comment—Ray Dupre from North Carolina—my comment will be brief here. I appreciate Brother Wilda’s concern, but I do want to point out that the Administrative Assistant position was in place at the writing of this resolution. So this resolution took into consideration the potential for an Administrative Assistant, and yet failed to name that Administrative Assistant having any authority to come into this meeting without the permission of the Presbytery. So the ruling that we are concerned with was in place when the, when the Administrative Assistant position was also in place. And if would’ve been the intent of the General Assembly to give the Administrative Assistant that responsibility, that would’ve been written into this ruling. But it’s not written into this ruling. In due respect to that Administrative Assistant… this is not, this does not—I’m not saying I have no respect for our Administrative Assistant—I’ve worked with this man. I am not saying that. I’m saying that we have a responsibility to carry out the mandate of the General Assembly. When I was asked to serve as an Overseer, it didn’t take me very long to find out that the Assembly rulings was my best friend. And if I was to stretch the intent of any ruling beyond what the Assembly desired, I was creating problems for myself. I firmly believe that we have the responsibility after having been informed of the vacancy of the office, the taking up of the organizing of ourselves, selecting of a recording secretary, a moderator, and proceed with the meeting. And at that point we can be free to invite anyone that we feel we need to come into this meeting. And this is not about having anything against anybody. What this is about is going back to the field and assuring them we did this according to the Assembly mandate. How can I expect my pastors to operate according to the Assembly mandate if I take the privileges of stretching this mandate out of its context. I, I believe, brethren, and this is for us to decide, that since the Administrative Assistant position was in place in ’89, if it would’ve been the intent of the Assembly for that persons… to take up this responsibility, it would’ve been so stated in the rulings. And for us to be able to proceed with the Presbytery Meeting, it will be necessary for us to begin as a Presbytery, organize ourselves, and then go on with our business. To do any otherwise would violate the simplicity of this ruling, and would violate the sacredness of this Presbytery, and further deteriorate the confidences of our people. Uh, I mean, I think every one of you have a right to speak to this issue while we unofficially are out of meeting. And see if we can’t come to an agreement as to what…to do… But I can assure you, for us to agree to do something beyond what the Assembly has mandated for us to do would be wrong. We would not have the favor of the Holy Ghost, and any business that we did here would be nullified, first of all by God, or by the Trinity, and could be brought in question by the General Assembly. It’s not a matter of, you know, gnats and beams, it’s a matter of just simply doing what the mandate of the Assembly said do. And while I respect Brother Wilda’s feelings here, if there is an Assembly mandate that allows for anything other than what I feel… I would like to hear it. But as I have studied out this particular setting, I don’t find it to be any otherwise.
Jernigan: Paul Jernigan, Regional Overseer of Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and East Texas. I don’t have any opening statements—no discussion about business in this meeting whatsoever. We have been here over thirty minutes and we have not even bowed on our knees and called upon God to give us wisdom. And brethren, it grieves me—and I’m not making any statements about anything that’s being said other than, we need to give honor to God. And let God give us, His men, wisdom to speak, that God would lead us. I just simply plead with you that we do that.
Dupre: Brethren, I’m ready to do just what Brother Jernigan has said, but if I do that in a setting any other than that has been established by the General Assembly, then I have violated what the Holy Ghost has demanded we do by unanimous agreement of the General Assembly. I’m ready to go to prayer right now, but I don’t see how God can honor it if we don’t go to prayer as the Presbytery, without the involvement of anybody else but the Presbytery. I’m ready to go to prayer now. I was ready to go to prayer before I come into the door. I’ve prayed for weeks on end before I got here. My eyes didn’t go, didn’t, my eyelids didn’t come shut last night… This is serious business and to, and to ignore the integrity of this Presbytery body that has been mandated by the General Assembly by praying without purging the Presbytery would not gain any honor from the Holy Ghost. And I believe if we are interested in doing what God wants us to do as Brother Jernigan has stated, and we want to satisfy the Holy Ghost, we have to satisfy what the Holy Ghost put in place through the General Assembly. I don’t think this is difficult. It simply takes an evacuating of everybody other than this Presbytery. And, and to not do that, in light of the Assembly mandate, would, would be futile to pray. If we don’t, if we don’t honor the highest tribunal of authority this side of glory, you can’t hope to pray through, ignoring the General Assembly and get the favor of God. It’s not a matter that I don’t want to pray. I don’t want that to even be construed here today. But I don’t want to violate the purity of this body. It has been mandated that way and it should be-, behoove all of us to want to protect that as much as when we are on our field of labor and problems come up in our area, we want to protect the mandate of the General Assembly related to that problem. I’m ready to go to prayer, brethren. But I’m not ready to go to prayer until we purge the Presbytery, because I firmly believe God will not honor that in light of the simple guidelines we have to follow. And I would like to say, anyone else that wants to speak is fine, but when we have finished discussing this, I would like for us to decide whether we want Brother Nabors to stay and from this point on, if we can agree on that, fine. If we can’t agree on that, we have to do what the General Assembly says to do and that is purge ourselves so we can do our business.
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky and Southern Illinois. It’s already been stated that we’re not in Presbytery officially yet. Brother Dupre made that statement earlier. We’re not officially into the Presbytery meeting as of yet. And I do have some questions. Should the Administrator, Assistant, Assistant Administrator leave, once he has departed, who would be the one to call us to order and ask us what we want to do about a moderator. We have to have some kind of order. And it seems to me that if the Administrative Assistant can help us with that order to that point… He’s not making the selection. Someone has to have, uh, have, bring order to us or else we’d be as a bunch of boys playing in the yard. There has to be some order to everything we do. And me, in my thinking, that we could select a moderator with someone in charge until that point, and then from that point we would begin officially… The chosen moderator would call the meeting to order. Or else we’re going to go the same direction we did in 1990. We can talk about the law all we want to, but we must have the Holy Ghost to help us. And we must clear our mind of everything else. I understand what has been read here, but again, how are we going to organize ourselves without somebody having order from… And that’s simply what is taking place here…before we start. Brother Nabors has not interfered with the Presbytery. And I really shouldn’t refer to him by name, but as Administrative Assistant. He has simply called us to order and we’ve had a prayer… I’m really not sure now whether we’ve had a prayer or not. But hopefully somehow we can be understanding with each other, or else this will be a long day. We need God’s direction. Obviously we’re not getting it yet. And I could press my, my feelings, the way I think it should be, but we have to have order somewhere from someone until we have chosen a moderator. Who, who’s going to moderate and give you opportunity to… I’d really like to know. I know several have already been up several times and I don’t want to take that much time. Surely, surely every one of us here have feelings about this. But I hope we don’t spend the whole first day on this. God bless you and God help us.
Nabors: (not at microphone) If I could be allowed to speak, I believe I could clarify this.
Dupre: (not at microphone) If you’ll permit us to finish the discussion, Brother Nabors, we can take care of this.
Nabors: (not at microphone) The, the clarification is in the 1943 meeting, Brother Dupre…
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Brother Nabors, I’m sorry…
Nabors: (not at microphone) …the ones that brought that up just a…
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Brother Nabors, I’m sorry…
Dupre: You’re right, it’s in the 1943 Minutes.
Nabors: (not at microphone) Yes, it is.
Dupre: But more accurately than that, we have been called to order by the General Assembly. It is not uncommon for a group of men to be called into a setting to meet, at which time they organize themself and carry forth their mandate. The General Assembly has given us the order. The vagueness of the ’43 meeting does not necessarily say that there is someone that took charge, although that business or the meeting proceeded, there is no clarity that the person that started that meeting first was not invited to do so. But what is clear about the meeting is that by permission those who were not a part of the Presbytery spoke. Which means the authority or responsibility for anyone speaking other than Presbytery members was in the charge of the Presbytery. The General Assembly has called us to order. Brother Nabors and the General Staff satisfied the mandate of the General Assembly by notifying us that the office was vacated. That order has been followed, as far as the notification is concerned. That order has been followed as far as the bringing of us together is concerned. Now, it is the mandate of the Assembly that we take up that business from that point. It’s not that we, it’s not that we can have chaos because one particular person has not been named. If you’ll study the ’43 minutes you’ll see that these brethren gave each other privileges to speak their concerns… Even their moderator was, was not a part of the Presbytery that time, did not take up his office without permission of the Presbytery. And I don’t think how, I don’t think it can be misconstrued at all that because someone has not taken the podium that we don’t have order. We have order because the Assembly mandated our order. It means that we come together as a Presbytery…called together, which was done, we be notified, which was done, we are here. And it, it is incumbent upon us to take care of our business now. And we can split hairs about the uncertainty, or the unwritten things that are not in the minutes, but what is written in the minutes is the Overseers selected a clerk, 8:51am of that meeting. 8:53 of that meeting, the Overseers selected a moderator. That’s very clear. It’s also clear to me according to the minutes of this meeting that Brother Gillespie was given permission to speak. Brother Lawson was given permission to read. And any other brother that spoke at that time is written that was given permission… That’s very clear. And we do have order—and we can—we can be in order and take care of this business without having someone to lead us into this. We are the Presbytery of the Church. We are not children that need to be led into our business. The General Assembly has mandated our business, and as men we should be able to take care of our business. I don’t want to take up this full day dealing with this simple issue. I think we could settle this officially if we had, if we would be given the privilege to do so. And in order to do that, and for me—and I’m speaking for me alone—because I’m going to face my people when I go back to North Carolina and I know what their questions are. And they are not ignorant either. They know what the mandate of the General Assembly is. We, we don’t have time nor a privilege to dabble with the simple rules of order for The Church of God. We are in order to come together. Nobody has to say when we walk into this room and 9:00 gets here, “Brethren, let’s pray.” If we’re concerned that the Spirit lead us, when we walk in that door and 9:00 comes, we should fall on our knees and pray. We have a leader. The Holy Ghost is our leader. And the Holy Ghost, through the General Assembly, has given us the order for this meeting. And to proceed beyond that point would be displeasing to the Spirit. And at this point I see no evidence, other than what’s been given—that the Presbytery be purged so that we can proceed with our business.
Pimentel: God bless you, brothers. Juan Pimentel is my name. Overseer of the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico. I believe that this is The Church of God. And I believe that in every age God has taken care, He has taken care to lead and direct the business of The Church of God. What I believe, that every one of us, as we be responsible, be responsible in front of God, that we would put ourselves in God’s hands, in the hands of the Holy Ghost. And that every one of us would dispose of all of our intentions, all of our ideas, every criticism, every position, we would put them, or lay them down at the hands of the Holy Ghost. And I’m sure that if we do it this way that the Holy Ghost will be… The Holy Ghost will take control and everything that is going to be done in this meeting would be the correct thing. I believe, brethren, that the Holy Ghost I believe that the Holy Ghost is alert. That He has already taken, made the decisions. That whoever…we elect our General Overseer that has The Church of God. That’s the only guarantee that we have, that we can continue the principles of the government, and of the doctrine, that Christ delegated to His Church. I believe brethren, I believe there’s a, like a, dissention around what we need to do right now, that we need to see the presence and the direction of the Holy Ghost. Why? Those that are present and those that are not present is going to be directed by the Holy Ghost. That’s what I believe. Every time there’s a new president, every institution that has a president, they also have a vice president or…administrators… What I believe, we need to invoke ourselves…Every one of us, everyone of us in the ministry searched out the direction of God. That the Holy Ghost would select the moderator, whoever is going to moderate this meeting. And after the moderator, and after that, those that are not part of the Presbytery, then they would have to leave the meeting. This is what I believe. God bless you, and God take care of you.
Lester: I agree with Brother Jernigan, that there can be no prayer until we get everything together with all of us. And we’re splitting hairs over who was to say something here this morning to start it off. Now, in 1990, Brother Estep was in the meeting. And they could not even begin to pick an Overseer until Brother Tomlinson had agreed to step down. Is that right, Brother Estep?
Estep: …
Lester: Yeah. Now, Brother Tomlinson—or Brother Pruitt—on May the 11th had a meeting with his committee. Now, I don’t know what was in that meeting. I haven’t seen any, I haven’t seen any minutes of it. But I think in order for us to—and I agree with Brother Estep about who will call this to order as the Presbytery—I know, I know how it went in ’43. I’ve reread it and reread it and Brother Paul Thompson who was a very close, dear friend of mine was in that meeting and he went, he told me how it went. He also said, told me how the 1990 meeting went. There was no comparison. But in ’43, my brethren, these Overseers came to the Assem—to Cleveland, Tennessee with their hearts broken. Had lost, they had lost their blessed General Overseer. They was meeting to find the will of God. And I believe that in order for us, I don’t know what the problem is that he cannot, Brother Nabors cannot read a statement that, that Brother Pruitt was in the day he retired. That you would know then what was going on. Yes, we took the word that Brother Pruitt retired, but they had a meeting of the Executive Committee. No one else was in that meeting. And as I’ve said, I don’t know what was in that meeting because I’ve never seen the minutes. But I’m assured, I’m positive that they took minutes. Now, do we want to go on—and we keep saying we want the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not work in confusion. If you could prove it to me that He does… The Holy Ghost will only operate where we’re in unity. As I reread the ’43 meeting, the power of God was so prevalent one man tried to speak and the Holy Ghost… He tried again the second time and… That was in ’43. A man by the name H.D. Moore who was an Overseer at the time was said that the haze, the Spirit…there was such a haze in that building that you couldn’t recognize the people, hardly, beside you. Now brethren… Yes, we’re here for a very momentum occasion. What we, what we do will reflect the Church for time and eternity. I don’t see, I don’t see why that we can’t get things together… If you have something against me, you come to me. And if I’ve got something against you, I’ll come to you. We’re gonna have to get together. Brother Jernigan’s has called for prayer…we’ve had a bunch more come up… I, I think it’s time that we put our differences aside and let the Holy Ghost fill this thing for us, or we’re gonna be here, we’re gonna be here a long time…let the Holy Ghost do it. You could, yes, I know there’s concerns out on the field. But I’m not here to address the concerns on the field. I’m here for us to get…the mind of God for the General Overseer that God wants us to have.
Neal: Carl Jr. Neal, State Overseer of South Carolina. I appreciate the statements that’s been read by the brethren… Confusion sometimes is not of God, but of men. And through meetings, discussion, God gives us understanding, and we can all come together with the understanding of the Holy Ghost. The way I see this, and I pray that you brethren of the Presbytery see it the same way. We’ve already been given a mandate that the Field Secretaries are to take care of the business of the Church while there’s no sitting General Overseer. Can I have an amen on that? (Amens) We have a Field Secretary and a National Overseer that is a member of the Presbytery. He, Brother Acosta, ought to be the general selection to lead us right now to select a moderator. This is a Presbytery only meeting and God has given us as His will a…stature, Brother Acosta…that’s what we need. And he, he, in my opinion…we need to open this meeting up for a moderator. If we need somebody to begin with a title, he fulfills everything.
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos, Overseer of California and Nevada. Brethren, I stand here with the fear of the Lord. And there are many of us that come up here, and I’m not gonna judge no one, you be your own judge, but we all have the fear of the Lord today? And I want to say something. We talk about order. We talk about order today. We talk about order, but then we rush in here overstepping other brothers that were in line. To me that’s not order.
Voice: (not at microphone) That’s right.
Castellanos: Okay? If we’re going to talk about order, okay, let’s follow that order. And I want, I just wanted to make that statement. Okay?… This order being said, let’s follow that order. But I ask him a question. We all talk about, it’s my understanding, that mandate is when a Presbytery meeting is in order. I ask a question. Who among us should say is good enough to lead us to the point? Brother Neal made a suggestion. But I’ll tell you one thing, okay, there’s no seniority in the Overseers. And I don’t think among us there’s no seniority. I might be young, but I have the same rights as an Overseer. I’m an elder in the Church…long as you see this young face, I’m an elder in the Church. And there’s no seniority who is going to be leading us to that point. Now, we say we respect our Administrative Assistant. To my understanding, he has asked us to address this Presbytery. This Presbytery is in order today.
Voice: (not at microphone) Translate this.
Castellanos: But we talk about, we have a General Administrative Assistant. That’s at the General level. Brother Acosta has a region and let’s take that in context please. Let’s not think about contest. Administrative Assistant has asked to address us. He has not tried take no one else place. But then one of us, including myself, okay, has agreed to let him speak. You will respect him. Okay. We are not in session yet. He can speak. But then we just choose to ignore it. Well, brother, I’ll tell you one thing, the Lord gave me a Scripture in Luke 12. That all things, that all things must come to light, must come to light. I pray, I pray to this day that when I came to, when I come to this Presbytery meeting my mind be clear of everything that was said. I want to search, I want to look for God’s will. I fear Him. I fear Him. I fear no man, ‘cause they can only kill this body. But I fear Him, who can not only kill the body but also condemn my soul. And I feel that we need to get a hold of Him or I fear…the Presbytery, I did my homework. I studies what happened in 1990, in 1943, and those men feared God. And they…in one mind, one agenda, and that is to seek God’s will. I’m not saying we’re not coming with that agenda, but let’s clear up our minds and let’s get on with this business.
Leighty: Elliot Leighty, Overseer of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, and Massachusetts. I just wanted to make a statement to be on record as Overseer that I’m here to agree to the Assembly rulings be carried out. I don’t know what will happen here in this meeting today, but I want it to be recorded that as Overseer in my responsibilities, I, I believe the General Assembly ruling should be followed strictly. And that the Overseers of this Presbytery meeting would select a moderator and then anyone who would want to speak, it would be to the moderator and the Presbytery… Thank you.
Mbogo: Renison Mbogo, from Africa, representing four countries: Kenya, Tanzania, Ethiopia and Zimbabwe. Uh, I’m here to give my views. We have come all that way because we are interested in God’s work and our contribution is needed. According to my understanding, there is a loophole in the, in the, in the minutes. The loophole is that, it didn’t say who would conduct the meeting when we are looking for a moderator.
Voice: (not at microphone) Go ahead and say it again, brother.
Mbogo: The loophole is that the minutes did not clearly state who will conduct the meeting, but it said that the, the Assembly, I mean the, the, the members of the Presbytery would do that. That’s okay and it’s good I agree with that. But gentlemen, and agree with me, we are in a bus. We are in a car. This car cannot move without a driver. So now that the, the loophole has been discovered, that it did not give a specific name of a person in an office who will conduct the meeting to look for a moderator, I think that it’s important for us to understand that we can’t move far without somebody telling us that the vehicle move this way. We seriously need someone to conduct and tell us from “a” to “b” how we are going to do it. I agree that, uh, I agree that, uh, uh, the Holy Spirit is going to, to conduct everything, but surely we need somebody to tell us, “Let’s close our eyes and pray.” Gentlemen, I think we need a driver in this bus. Thank you.
Acosta: I would like to say a few words here. Only because I heard my name once again be mentioned. I’ve asked some of our Hispanic brethren that we would be wise not to say these things…not to our people. They could misinterpret what is being done here. And they might be thinking that there is racism in The Church of God. I do have a General Appointment, not regional. I was a regional, and now I am a Field Secretary, Central and South America, and that is a General Appointment. The second thing, I have nothing against Brother Nabors. He would inform me, he would inform me because he realized that I did have a General Appointment…never did he call me when...or as a report. I was on the phone with him for almost a half hour. I was told that there was going to be policemen here. How is there going to be, I mean, people are, what are people going to think that we want the Holy Ghost to take control of this meeting but, if we have invited the police to come. That’s not correct. Never in the history, never in the history of the Church have we, have they ever heard that we brought policemen. That is an offense to the Holy Ghost. Because here we are servants of the Lord, servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. Uh, we can also say about this meeting, the Administrative, uh, the General, uh, Administrative, uh, Appointment is something else. That’s another, uh, calling. But the union, or, or the meeting of the Presbytery, that’s, uh, supposed to be only for the Presbytery. Uh, me as being uh, uh, uh, Field Secretary are, are by rights we should be here until the Presbytery would come to, uh, an agreement. Then we have no authority for being here. This is only to show the business of the Church. We have been in the Church for a long time. We know the Church. What I want to ask, let’s, uh, dispose of our emotions, our sentiments, because this is government and doctrine. Uh, this is not going to pass because you’re my friend or because I, I have a good relationship with you… The decision that, that we get, we have here to make today…if we get in on a bad note, this will affect forever. And I will repeat myself, that if there’s bad business done here, we will have to bury our books and never again speak about business. I, I, I am asking you to leave all of your sentiments and whatever is affecting you, uh, sentiments, whatever it is, and that we be here like ministers, that we can, uh, execute the business because these are the business of The Church of God. And I am going to tell you this. I have a great concept of, of, of the North Americans, and I don’t want to lose it. Uh, for the love and the respect that they have for the Hispanic community…
Acosta: Let us continue and do the business the, the way the General Assembly has mandated. Because this decision we’re going to make today, this will affect a lot of people. Not only Hispanics, but North Americans. I believe it’s necessary that we, we be cordial. We have lost a lot of people in The Church of God. I have told a lot of Hispanics, “Don’t move. Things are going to change. Those things that are happening right now, they will have to, uh, uh, be terminated by the Holy Ghost. Don’t move—this is The Church of God.” Uh, just like we are, uh, gathered here this morning. And I will repeat this again, uh, that, that, that, that word violence, I did not like the way they treated one of my brothers only because he was not of the Presbytery. Because that man was scolded and, and humiliated. Why are we defending those that are not of the Presbytery?
(Spanish dialogue regarding Brother Lester and Brother Ard)
Voice: Did you, did you scold anybody outside that was, that was not of the Presbytery? ‘Cause he’s saying that one of the brethren that’s not of the Presbytery was scolded outside… When?
(Spanish dialogue)
Voice: Oh, you did not allow Herman Ard to come in because he’s not part of the Presbytery.
Lester: (not at microphone) No, that was not so. He jumped me. That was something between Brother Ard and I.
(Spanish dialogue)
Lester: Let me say what happened.
Aviles: I want to tell you what happened.
Lester: Brother Ard called me outside and he said that I was supposed to have got a van. I said that I did not have the authority to get a van. And he said, “You were, you were told to get a van.” I said, “I was not told to get a van.” I do not have the authority to hire, to rent a van. My authority in regards to the vans, Brother Acosta, is for the General Assembly to make sure they’ve got drivers to haul you men, brethren around. But Brother Ard and I, he was not kept from coming in here, because neither could I keep him from coming in here and when you mentioned the police, there’s no police out there. There’s no police out there. There are men from the Church and the only reason they’re there is because some things that come out over the Internet and things that were supposed to be…that they were going to be here, people that are not members of the Church no more. Now, in regards to that, the day that Brother Pruitt retired he called me into the office after he met with the Executive Committee. He said…he said… He said, “Brother Lester, you are in charge of security…Watchmen Committee.” He said, “You must keep order.” And then he also said to me, he said, “As an Overseer, you Overseers are gonna have to get it right.” Now, back in March he called me in the office because he’d got some word that somebody was, that there was gonna be some people come down and create a problem. He called me in and told me that I was to keep order. I have never kept anyone out of General Headquarters…as lied upon, as I was lied upon. Everyone of ‘em that come in there went in there and met with Brother Pruitt. Brother Ard and I had a disagreement out here over what he said I was supposed to do… I told him I didn’t… So there was no scolding of him. In other words, him and I had a disagreement.
Acosta: Brother, I beg your forgiveness if there was no… I do want to say that I was informed of this as a Secretary, or a Field Secretary, that there was going to be police.
(Spanish dialogue)
Aviles: (not at microphone) Were you on the phone with Sister Olga, telling him that there were gonna be police?
Nabors: (not at microphone) No, no. That there was going to be security…
Aviles: That’s what they, they, they told him that there was going to be police.
Acosta: What I want to do is I want to continue doing the business of the Church…written down. Let us, uh, maintain ourselves in whatever is written.
Lester: (not at microphone) Just a minute—in 1990 they had security at Tomlinson College.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Overseer of Arkansas/Missouri. Every month on our minister’s monthly report the question is asked, “Do you agree with all Assembly recommendations?” All of us, of course, answer yes to that. It has been stated very plainly concerning the guidelines that the Assembly has handed down that we follow in a meeting such as this. Confusion exists because we’re not following the guidelines. If everyone except the Presbytery would vacate the building, (repeat for translator) would vacate the building, then the Presbytery could go to the Lord in prayer, get in one mind and one accord, and we could choose a secretary and we could choose a moderator. That is the order that we are to follow. We’ve spent about an hour and thirty minutes trying to decide whether we’re going to follow the order that’s been handed down. We are men of honor. We are men of honor. And the only way God’s going to bless this meeting, if we follow what’s been handed down by the General Assembly. So I would like to suggest that only the Presbytery remain here, let’s go to the Lord in prayer, and let God take charge of this meeting. Thank you.
S. Smith: Stephen Smith from Virginia/West Virginia. Uh, and I’ll try not to come up again—I apologize. I’d like to say first in regard to having order, even though we haven’t come to an agreement with each other yet, I have witnessed very good order here. I have witnessed people being polite to one another, uh, taking turn as they feel led to speak. Uh, I believe that we’re grown, mature, spiritual men and well able to follow on here and, and find God’s direction. The real issue is, are we going to obey the Assembly ruling or not? I have been in situations where people say, “I don’t care what the rules say, I’m going to follow the Holy Ghost.” But if we say that in this meeting, we are saying the Holy Ghost did not lead the General Assembly, to give us the rules. I have three Assembly rulings before me. I’ll just read one. And this is from the 90th Assembly, 1995, “Be it further resolved that The Church of God recognizes the General Assembly as its highest tribunal under God.” I apologize, I will read one more prior to that, in 1946, it says, “The General Assembly in conference is the determining factor to interpret all Bible doctrine and practices of the Church.” And if we do not obey what the Holy Ghost has given to the Assembly, we set ourselves above the Assembly and place ourselves in a dangerous position before God, and before our people. We can eliminate the confusion if we simply agree to do what the Assembly said do. How could we do anything else and leave this meeting with a good conscience? My feeling right now is unless we have a unanimous decision to, uh, ask Brother Nabors to stay or anyone else who would not be part of the Presbytery, without unanimous agreement of this body that they would not be able to stay. And I really don’t, uh—you’re certainly welcome to continue discussion—but in my opinion, uh, I don’t think we can get that unanimous agreement. And, uh, Brother Nabors, it’s no rebuke or personal thing to you, but in our obligation to The Church of God and to the Holy Ghost who we believe gave us the rulings, I feel that you should dismiss yourself for the sake of this Presbytery because we can’t go further from this point until, until that’s accomplished. Brother Dupre.
Dupre: I would like to address my brother from California. I had the privilege of meeting him on, uh, more than one occasion. And one of the greatest joys of my life is to witness our young men so mature that they can come to this level of Church administration, and I appreciate my brother here. I don’t see him as young. I see him as one member of the Presbytery. And I would like to say to him so that he would be clear, this is not about whether we want or don’t want Brother Nabors to address this body. We can decide to do that. So, it’s not in disrespect to Brother Nabors. It is not in disrespect to Brother Nabors. This is a matter of Church business and Church order. And, uh, I’m sure that once we can get this started right that the Spirit will give us liberty to come together and to decide that we want to hear this information. I, I don’t have a problem with that. It may be beneficial to us to hear this information, but it certainly would not be pleasing to the rules established under our theocratic rules of government. When the Assembly establishes a procedure, it is not in the right of any one of us for any particular reason, regardless of respect, or disrespect, to go beyond the ruling of an Assembly. And, and I want you to understand, I don’t disrespect Brother Nabors. And I’m not here saying that I don’t want to hear what he has to say. But if we hear what he has to say—I may be wrong—but what I glean from what you were saying to us, some among us has already decided they want him to speak. The reverse of what you were saying to us would be applicable here. If that was decided by some among us, why were not all of us given that same privilege? And that’s what this is all about. It has nothing to do with respect or disrespect, but the General Assembly has given us a way to operate where we are fair to one another. And I think, I think we’ve had plenty of discussion here… If our intention is to do what the General Assembly has said to do, it is very simple just to purge ourselves, go to prayer, take up our business of selecting a moderator, recording secretary, and decide what information we need to proceed with our business. We can’t—however emotional we get—we cannot sidestep or overlook our Assembly recommendations. If we do, the confidences of our people will deteriorate. And it will make us ineffective. Uh, I don’t intend to go home unless I can say to my people, “We have satisfied the simple, direct ruling of the General Assembly.” My brother that talked about needing a bus driver, these types of, uh, explanations fit well in the secular world. But we’ve got a bus driver in The Church of God. He’s the Holy Ghost. We have had order. We have been kind to one another. We can do this business the way the Assembly has said for us to do this business without any problem at all. But we will have a problem if we dare to proceed without following this mandate of the Assembly. And I don’t want to be here the rest of the day, uh, but I see we have no choice if we can’t agree that anyone can stay other than a Presbytery member. By the fact that we can’t agree, it would be necessary for Brother Nabors to vacate the building. I would think he could be able to do that with a good spirit, uh, in light of how we operate. I could. And I would. Uh, there’s no need in us belaboring this. I think it’s very simple. We are going to choose to follow the ruling. If we do any otherwise, we’re guilty of violating…
Lester: (not at microphone) Brother Dupre, Brother Dupre.
Dupre: If you have something to say to me, you can say it openly, Brother Lester, I don’t have any problem with that.
Lester: (not at microphone) I would like to make a suggestion to you.
Dupre: Come right on.
Lester: You were saying that we need to clear the building except for the Presbytery. Why can’t we do that, ask Brother—after we pick a moderator—ask Brother Nabors to come back in and to read what, what, what transpired.
Dupre: That’s exactly what we’ve been saying for the last hour and a half.
Lester: (not at microphone) …we haven’t agreed that the moderator will call him back in.
Dupre: We can, we can go to business once we have purged the Presbytery.
Lester: (not at microphone) But that’s not what I’m asking…
Dupre: We can’t, we can’t do business until we do what the General Assembly says do and that’s to purge the Presbytery.
Lester: (not at microphone) …bring him back in right after, after, after we purge the Presbytery…
Dupre: If we, as a Presbytery decide to do that, yes…
Lester: (coming to the microphone) But you made another statement a while ago that you, that we need to be able, you said, to bring in who we want to bring in for information. Do you have some people in mind that you want to bring in?
Dupre: No sir, my comment is that we have that privilege as a Presbytery if we need information, we could bring anyone that we want in, if we agree to do that.
Aviles: Can I just stop you for a little bit?
Dupre: Yes…
Aviles: I need, I need time to interpret. You guys are just going back and forth…
Dupre: (Laughing) I’m sorry, go right ahead.
Aviles: We’ve got brethren who’ve come many, many miles to listen to this and, you know. Start all over again. Slowly. Read my lips.
Lester: Where, where was we at?
Dupre: I don’t know (laughing).
Lester: What I… Ralph Lester, Tennessee. In regards to what I was asking Brother Dupre, if we, we, if we, Brother Pruitt—Brother Nabors was to leave the off-, building, and then we pick a moderator and go to prayer, we pick a moderator and then have him come back in to read what he has prepared from the minutes that they took in the Executive Committee meeting.
Dupre: And my response to—uh, Ray Dupre, North Carolina (laughs). My response to Bishop Lester and I, I, I, he and I have a long relationship, is that’s exactly what we’ve been trying to say for the last hour and a half. That is the privilege of the Presbytery. Once we, once we have begun the meeting, whatever we agree on, we can do.
Lester: But right, but right now, Brother Dupre, we all have a difference here…and if everybody didn’t agree, then, to bring him back in, he couldn’t come back in.
Dupre: We can’t, when we’re not in business, what can we agree to?… I’m saying what you are proposing can be done, I don’t have a problem with that. As a matter of fact, once we have gone to prayer, we have organized ourselves, uh, the chairman can take that suggestion from the Presbytery, and we can agree on that. And that would be proper order.
Lester: Also then, what you’re saying… But who is going to call us to order…and stand up here, and when you make a nomination for a moderator, who’s going to be the one to stand up here and do that?
Dupre: The ’43 Minutes reveal that several brethren called out a name for a moderator. There was nobody in charge as far as taking, taking anything… So, if you read those minutes, we would have a right to do what we’re doing right now.
Lester: You may have somebody, you may have someone you want to recommend. But I’m not going to recommend anyone, I don’t care. Uh, I’m not gonna recommend anyone as a moderator. There may be some who have difference of views on who should be up here moderating this Presbytery meeting.
Dupre: Exactly, and that’s why it’s for us to settle and I don’t want to disrespect my brethren… What Brother Lester’s proposing can exactly be done if we can do it that way.
Forbes: Thank you very much, Brother Dupre. Um, I’m George C. Forbes, Turks & Caicos, Bahamas, Caiman Islands. When I, uh, before I came here, there is a song that stick in my mind. And it says that He empty Himself of all but love and died for Adam’s helpless race. And I believe that what we should be doing here, empty our minds, and ourself here this morning rather than getting bogged down in irregularities. I’m going to ask you uh, as Overseers I believe we need a, a recess. I’m going to ask you to, you know, to just take a little break, you know, because this is something I was anticipating was going to happen, that we was going to come here and get bogged down in these indifferences. And I also, uh, saw and know the fact…that everyone is not acquainted with this, but I think we should take a break, take a breather, then come back and have a prayer. And I think we’ll get things straightened out. Thank you very much.
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos from California and Nevada. Brother, Brother Dupre, since you addressed me, that intrigued, you made a statement that you…my mind. I made it very clear that I came with my mind clear to do what the Lord’s will is. I didn’t see no one, I didn’t talk to no one, who mentioned, we been, uh, recommend for a group of people that come through those doors, and have Brother Nabors speak. I want to clarify that…very, very clear that I come with my mind clear to do the Lord’s will. And I also ask a suggestion, I asked a question and nobody addressed it. We hear why and why not’s, but the bottom question is the meeting has now officially been opened. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Brother, uh, Brother Dewayne, we answered that question: yes. And we don’t break any mandate because the meeting has not been set in order. Like I say, I could be wrong. That’s what I said. No one, nobody has, you know, we can all have… Brother, uh, Dupre mentioned one thing, that we…made up our minds. I want to just say again very clear, I made a statement. I came with a clear mind, seeking the Lord, seeking wisdom, and no feelings, no feelings at all in this meeting. I can like you or dislike you. I can get along with you or not get along with you. We may have many differences. But I choose to leave those differences behind outside, okay? And seek God’s will. Let’s get it right. Let’s get it right. Let’s just do it right. And I believe we all want to do it right. You know, we, we have ask, recommend Brother Acosta—nothing against him. But I can get up here and recommend someone else. I can get up here and recommend…and it will continue and continue and continue… And I feel the same thing has happened back in 1990. We are discussing who should speak, just as they took a long time discussing whether they should tape this or not tape this back in 1990. We continue down this path, we’re going get it wrong. And to this point no one has shown a reason why. I just ask that question. Nobody has answered that: why can’t the Administrative Assistant speak if the meeting has not set in order? That’s just the question. Okay? And, we find that loophole the brother from Africa said. Who is, who am I to get up here and say, “I ask Brother Aviles to moderate this meeting.” …some direction. Let’s start seeking it. Thank you.
Banuelos: Jose Banuelos, Overseer of Mexico. I only want to say, I want to say something. I do not want to choose to take a break at this time if I have not prayed before. We have talked a lot. And we have not prayed at all. And be Brother Nabors present or not present, we have not prayed at all. If there is going to be a break, I just ask that we pray before we take it.
Dupre: In response to the question that you asked, and I’m sorry that you feel that, that, that you was not, that that question was not addressed. My understanding is that what Brother Nabors was wanting to do was read the minutes of that Administrative Committee. To do that before we are in official business would be to give information to the Presbytery that they hold the right to either ask for or not ask for. It is not that we don’t want him to speak. We’re not in business. But if he’s going to present business while we are not in business, that is not proper because we have the right to choose if we want to, we want to see those minutes, or we don’t want to. That, what I simply was saying, the mandate of the General Assembly ruling has been met by having notified us. Now, I’m not saying I don’t want to see the minutes. I may want to do that. But I don’t have a right to do that unofficially. And neither are those minutes to be presented unofficially. I think, you know, when Brother Lester and myself can agree on anything, I believe the rest of us ought to be able to agree on it! (Laughs) And that is, let’s just do what the Assembly says do, and then we can invite our brother back in at the discretion of the Presbytery. But I don’t want you to feel like we don’t want Brother Nabors to speak. This is not a personal issue between any of us. This is just simply carrying out the mandate of the General Assembly. Gracias, hermano.
Voice: And I understand that.
Wilda: I, uh, Jerry Wilda again. I don’t want anyone to think that my attempt was to violate any mandate of the General Assembly. But I feel that we had a structure in place whereby, uh, Brother Nabors could assist in choosing our staff to conduct this meeting. And I had no knowledge of him attempting to read any minutes of the Executive Committee. My, my feelings was that he would just help us to find, uh, a moderator and a secretary, and then we could officially call the meeting in order. And then, as already requested, if the Presbytery wants to hear the, any other information from Brother Nabors, we could call him back. And if I’ve been contributory, contributing to this long delay I would apologize. But I do not feel that, uh, Brother Nabors moderating the meeting for us to find our officials to run the Presbytery meeting, uh, if that’s in violation of an Assembly mandate, I would apologize to the Presbytery. But my attempt is merely to get us started and anything to be considered would need to be called in by the Presbytery. And if I have been out of order, I apologize.
Dupre: Ray Dupre, North Carolina. I think we should honor Brother Banuelos’ request at this time. And I think it would be proper for us, uh, as Brother Lester and I have talked about, once we have got everything in place, to let that be brought up. I, I, what I’m saying, brethren, I, I don’t have any disagreement to having the minutes read. And, and it may not be no disagreement… But it has to be done as the General Assembly says to do it. And it’s, you know, it’s not up for me to impose my feelings one way or another. But I think we can, we can go into, uh, a break all praying together and not violate anything. I want to pray with Brother Nabors and everybody else who wants to pray. I don’t have any problem with that. And then when we come back together, let the Presbytery organize itself, and then if Brother Lester wants to bring that up as the first order of business after we organize ourselves, that’s fine with me.
Lester: I have no disagreement with this. Uh, but we don’t know—Brother Nabors has talked to Brother Pruitt—we don’t know, maybe Brother Pruitt has told him some things to tell the Presbytery. But I’ll be in agreement here if Brother Dupre and I, we, we’ve come together, I guess. We’ve got our tails tied together and hanging over the barbed wire fence. (Laughs) But anyway, uh, I would be in favor of that, uh, providing that after we pick a moderator, and a secretary, that, that I be allowed to ask that Brother Nabors be brought back in to read what he feels—what he feels that Brother Pruitt might have wanted him to say. ‘Cause you remember when we had our meeting after the Assembly, Brother Pruitt addressed us and then left. And all I’ve tried to do is to fulfill the request that Brother Pruitt has given me. That’s all. That we get it right. And…as a chairman of the Watchman Committee, to keep order and make sure everything is in peaceful and honorable. Now, you can ask these men that I’ve got out there what I’ve instructed them. To be very polite. And to, if anybody that’s not supposed to be on this property…they will be asked to leave politely three, three times. And I’ve not asken anybody—I’ve told my men, “Don’t you put a hand on any of them.” That’s not, that’s not our intentions. But if we can come together here now and have this prayer and have the break, whatever, and come back in and pick a moderator and a secretary, and then bring Brother Nabors back in to read what he has to read—I don’t know what he’s got to read. I, uh, I, I’ve told you what Brother Pruitt told me. But I don’t know what Brother Pruitt has told Brother Nabors…
Dupre: I agree that you have the right to bring that matter of business up for the Presbytery to decide to do, as well as any brother has the privilege to bring up any, uh, anything that they need as far as information. And I think that would satisfy the mandate of the General Assembly if we do it in that order—if we do it in reverse order, it wouldn’t. Brethren, do we feel good enough that we could stand together and pray all together while we are together? Then we’ll take a break, and then reconvene as the Presbytery, organize ourselves, and then the moderator can give Brother Lester the privilege of bringing that motion before us. And then we can decide to, to, if that’s what the Presbytery wants to do, that’s what we can decide to do. I don’t want to push my will on the, on the Presbytery, but brethren, do you feel good about that?
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Could we get a time, like 10 minutes or, you know…a time to come back?
Dupre: Okay. As many of us that is of us, probably 20 minutes would be more necessary.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Okay, 20 minutes.
Lester: (not at microphone) I need to, Brother Ard wanted me to ask a question… Brother Ard needs to know if we’re going to break and take, let people go eat, and how many would not have a ride, and then we will rent a bus for those who don’t have a ride. And, and I need to let Brother Ard know so he can find out about a bus. A van, rather. Is anyone not have a ride, that’s here? Is somebody taking care of you, some of the state overseers hauling you around? There’s two back there…how many more? Three?
Dupre: (not at microphone) …whoever rode with me in my van is welcome to ride with me and I’ve got one more space.
Lester: Hu? Okay, well, that’s wonderful then. We can save the money and don’t have to rent a van.
Dupre: Uh, Brother Lester, there’s just a need for clarification. I don’t think… We want to make it right clear and that is that we are saying that when we come back after the break, we’ll come back as the Presbytery only, is that right?
Lester: Yeah, ‘til after we…
Dupre: After we organize, right.
Lester: …pick a moderator and then we, I want to ask…
Dupre: Right. Okay. Does that satisfy everybody? Well, I think we’re ready to pray, we’re in unison. Amen? Let’s pray, brethren.
(Prayer; Brother Nabors vacates the building)
Castellanos: Brother Dupre…20 minutes, you suggested 20 minutes…
Dupre: Let me ask this question, we are right here at the lunch hour. We can either take a 20 minute break and continue through lunch, or we can go ahead and have a lunch and come back at, say, 1:00. That’s just up to everybody. I don’t plan to eat, myself, but, you know, others that plan to eat… If we take a 20 minute break now, then there may be some that want to go to lunch at noon and so we would only be here for a short few minutes… What everybody feels good about. If you want to just go ahead and take the lunch time and then come back. Everybody in agreement to make it one lunch hour and come back at 1:00 reconvene? 1:00. It’s 11:15 right now, that would be an hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes, that would give plenty of time to get waited on and get back. Those who are riding in my vehicle, if you plan to go to lunch, I’ll be glad to take you to lunch. Any opposition to coming back at 1:00? Alright.
Lester: Just one more thing I want to say before we, because when we come back we, we’ll start organizing. But I definitely feel in my spirit that Brother Nabors has been treated terribly here today. And you may not agree with that, but this man has done his best to carry on the work of the Church in the absence of Brother Pruitt. He’s been accused of a lot of things, but I think that he needs to be, that you need to, if you’ve got something against him, you need to talk to him and apologize. The, the man is, is just another man and he’s took a lot… You say, “Yes, you’re a friend of his.” Yes, I’m a friend of his. But I don’t feel things was done right. God bless you.
Adjourned at 11:15am
1:01pm
Lester: Huh?… Oh, he’s here…okay, uh, I believe it was suggested before we broke to have a prayer before we pick a moderator, is that right? Would you please stand and we’ll pray and then we’ll have, uh, we’ll ask for a nominations, I guess.
(Prayer; ended at 1:12pm)
Dupre: Brethren, I would, if you’ll permit me I would like to speak. The only pattern that we have, as we’ve discussed earlier, that is any way similar to what we are faced with today is that of the 1943, uh, meeting of the Presbytery. And, uh, if you need to read those minutes, they are available. As I read the minutes, I find that there was a spirit of freedom in the Presbytery to speak and, um, to make recommendation for consideration by the rest of the Presbytery. And I believe that as the Spirit is moving among us that it would be in order, as you feel the Spirit, to mention a name for someone to be the recording secretary. That could be done and then we could, all together, agree, and if we can’t agree on that person, then move on to someone else. Brother Leighty? Yes.
Leighty: (not at microphone) I’d just like to ask a question. Whoever the moderator will be, what authority will the moderator have? Will it be the same as a General Assembly business conference, a local church business conference? I’m not clear on what authority the moderator will have.
Dupre: My best understanding of the position that we are in, and you’re certainly welcome to disagree with that, is that since we are engaged in a business meeting ordered by the General Assembly that the guidelines that are in place for any of our business meetings should also be in place in this meeting. If that’s a, if that’s a, a subject you would like to discuss, we are at liberty to discuss with one another our feelings on that. Yes?
Grant: (not at microphone) Um, Mike Grant, from Alaska. Uh, would this be, would this be the same as a called conference since this is, we’ve got one job before us, we have one purpose to be here?
Dupre: The, uh, the mandate of the General Assembly is not in the light of a called business meeting, but an official meeting with an official purpose and I think we would have to stick with that purpose which is singularly to put in place an Interim General Overseer at some point, once we organize ourselves. But this—go ahead, I’m sorry. But in my thinking—and I’m just thinking for myself—brethren, you’re welcome to think with me, (repeat for translator) in my thinking, and I’m just thinking of myself since the question was asked, you’re welcome to think with me, because I think unless we think together we, we won’t ever get to a meeting of the minds. You have to have that liberty. It, it seems reasonable to me that since we are under mandate of the General Assembly which is a business procedure, that the rules that govern any of our business meetings, the General Assembly, State and National Conventions, and local church conferences, these would be the guidelines we would need to go by as, as moderator and as conduct is concerned.
Lester: …
Dupre: Um, you want to ask that question?
Lester: No, go ahead.
Dupre: It’s not my question. (Laughs) Yes, Brother Nainggolan?
Nainggolan: (not at microphone) …
Grant: (not at microphone) You need to come to the microphone.
Horne: (not at microphone) We need to hear, we need to hear what you say.
Nainggolan: Yeah, I’m Kalman Naingolan from Indonesia. So, we are gathering here as a Presbytery meeting to follow the General Assembly ruling. So now is the time for us to officially begin and start the Presbytery meeting today. My question is now already start officially our meeting already, or how the procedure to start it according to the General Assembly ruling? According to my understanding, before we start it officially, we cannot progress anything position. Or we ask the Holy Ghost now come down and officially open this Presbytery meeting of The Church of God. So my question is, how the procedure to open officially our meeting, Presbytery meeting today? Thank you.
Dupre: Okay, I think, uh, in answer to that question, we committed to come back here and officially open with prayer. And so having prayed, that would constitute an official opening of this meeting. That’s what we agreed to before we dismissed. Uh, is everybody in agreement with that since we, when we dismissed our intent and, uh, the statement was made that we would come back and convene with prayer, which constituted opening this official session?
(Spanish clarification)
Dupre: Everybody in agreement with that? Anyone who would disagree?
Castellanos: I have a question.
Dupre: Yes.
Castellanos: We convened to that, and, uh, can, shouldn’t, uh, on that which point have a moderator and then you act as a moderator for that?
Dupre: The, the model that we have now from this point states they put a recording secretary in place first and then they put a, a moderator in place.
Castellanos: Okay.
Dupre: Everybody is content with the fact that we are officially in Presbytery meeting? Okay. At this point, we have the liberty, each, as he feels, would like to make a suggestion as far as the—go ahead, I’m sorry. (Translator) Let, let’s make sure everybody agrees that we have officially opened this meeting by prayer.
Coronel: (not at microphone) Brother Juan Coronel, Overseer of Argentina and, uh, Brazil. So we move on forward. We, uh, need to go ahead and, uh, go ahead and, uh, make suggestion for a moderator… According to what you were saying in the meeting.
Dupre: Brother Coronel, the model that we have, they put a recording secretary in place first. Then they put a moderator in place.
Dupre: I understood, but you’d better say it. (Laughs)
Aviles: He says that he recommends, he makes a suggestion that Brother Horne be the, uh, the recording job, secretary.
Dupre: Okay, there has been a recommendation that Brother Horne be a recording secretary. Are there any other recommendations?
Castellanos: I will recommend that Brother Rob Hawkins be the secretary.
Dupre: Okay. Let’s, uh, since there are two recommendations, let’s hear from the men who have been recommended as to how they feel, if they want to function in that position. Brother Hawkins, would you like to speak?
Hawkins: …
(Brother Hawkins declined the nomination)
Dupre: Okay. Since you’ve made that recommendation, would you accept his decline of that?
Castellanos: Yes, I do.
Dupre: Okay. Do we have any other suggestions? If there are no other suggestions, would this Presbytery be content with having Brother Horne being our recording secretary? Any opposition to him being our recording secretary? The order of business according to the Assembly is we take opposition. Any opposition? There being no opposition then it’s obvious we are in unanimous agreement for Brother Horne to be our recording secretary. Alright, we’re ready now to move forward if someone has a suggestion for moderator for this meeting.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. I’d like to recommend, uh, Bishop Ray Dupre as our moderator.
Dupre: Okay, are there any other recommendations.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I recommend, uh, Brother Cannon.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I recommend, uh, Brother Cannon.
Dupre: Okay, are there any other recommendations? Hermano Acosta?
Acosta: I’m Brother Donalda Acosta. I recommend Brother, Bishop Ray Dupre.
Dupre: Okay, that recommendation is already before us. Is there any other recommendations other than Brother Cannon as well as Brother Dupre?
Aviles: Hermano Arturo Aviles, Overseer of, uh, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northern Illinois, and Iowa, Michigan, East Canada. I recommend Brother Paul Jernigan.
Dupre: Okay. Any other names that you would like to present to us? Yes, Brother Cannon?
Cannon: H.L. Cannon, Ohio and Indiana. I’d like to recommend Brother Jerry Wilda.
Dupre: Okay. Are there other recommendations that you have? Okay, there being no other recommendations, would we like to hear from each of the brethren as to their position as their willingness to serve? Brother Wilda was recommended, uh, by Brother Cannon. Brother Wilda, would you like to speak as to whether you would like to serve in that position or not? I’m sorry, did I miss somebody?
Hernandez: My name is Caleb Hernandez, Overseer of the countries of Paraguay, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama. I recommend as a moderator Hermano Ray Dupre.
Dupre: Okay, that name is in, in recommendation already. Give your name again for our recording secretary, please.
Hernandez: Caleb Hernandez…
Dupre: Okay, are there any other new names other than were already mentioned? Okay, there being no new names, we’ll go back to Brother Wilda and, and, and have him speak as to how he feels, whether he would like to, you know, to serve in that position or not. And then we’ll go through, back our way up, back to the first recommendations. Brother Wilda.
Wilda: I would say whatever the Holy Ghost and the Presbytery wants.
Dupre: Okay, Brother Cannon.
Cannon: …I appreciate the nomination…
Dupre: Okay, you want to leave your name in place in the nominations, then? Is that correct, Brother Cannon?
Cannon: …
Dupre: We’re just, we’re just trying to, to, to decide who, who would want to continue.
Cannon: I’m not asking for the job…
Dupre: I understand that. Uh…because in a moment we’ll vacate and let this Presbytery choose, you know, as they pray it out and choose. So, if you want to vacate with those that will leave their name and nomination. That’s, that’s fine if that’s what you want to do.
Cannon: (not at microphone) I just feel like you brothers could do a better job than I could.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) I think, I think he’s declining.
Dupre: Okay.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) I think.
Dupre: Alright. Then let me ask this. Who made, who was the brother that made the recommendation of Brother Cannon?
Lester: (not at microphone) I did.
Dupre: Okay, would you mind to withdraw that recommendation?
Lester: (not at microphone) …he doesn’t want to serve.
Dupre: Okay. Alright. Brother Jernigan.
Jernigan: (not at microphone) I would certainly from my heart desire not to fulfill this position…recommendation. But in the fear of God…to Him and this Presbytery…I would do so.
Dupre: Okay. Alright, we will ask, uh, and, and I will be willing to serve if that’s the sense of this committee, I mean this Presbytery. We’ll ask these—yes, brother?
Coronel: Overseer Juan Coronel, Overseer… The brothers…have already shared their feelings, the ones that were recommended.
Castellanos: …second the motion, I don’t think there be no motion.
Coronel: I wanted to have Brother Dupre as the moderator.
Dupre: Okay, the, the order of business once we have had these recommendations is to give opportunity for discussion of the Presbytery. Pardon? Was there five nominees? Brother Smith, was you nominated? I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to pass you up.
Horne: No, Dewayne Smith recommended Ray Dupre. Ralph Lester recommended Brother Cannon. Brother Acosta, Brother Dupre…
Dupre: What, what would need to happen now, Brother Coronel, is discussion and prayer by the Presbytery concerning these brethren, and we would vacate the place and give you guys that privilege to do that. Uh, and, and then see if you could come to a decision as to which one all could agree on. Uh, if anyone disagrees with that order of business you’re welcome to say so. Otherwise we will vacate the building and let the Presbytery, uh, go to prayer and, and try to make a decision of, of that person.
Lester: (not at microphone) Are we going to have discussion first?
Dupre: That’s what we’re going to do, uh-huh. Yes, brethren?
Gaddis: Louis Gaddis, I’m the National Overseer of Haiti. Was not Brother Acosta’s name on the list also?
Dupre: No, huh-uh. He made a recommendation. Yes. There were four names put in the recommendation, one was, was, was taken out. And at this time I’ve asked all three of the brethren if we could step out and let the Presbytery discuss this, pray about it, and come to a decision. Now again, the model for this procedure until we get to a moderator is liberty for all to speak until an agreement can be made. Brother, uh, Lester, Brother Jernigan, if you will, let’s, let’s us vacate.
Voices: Brother Wilda.
Dupre: Brother Wilda. I’m sorry.
(Brother Dupre, Brother Jernigan, and Brother Wilda vacate the building)
Lester: We’re supposed to be able to speak freely. Um, I feel that Brother Dupre, since him and I have been so vocal that, uh, that would kind of disqualify him from being the moderator. And so I, I would like to see someone else.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. I feel just the opposite. By what took place this morning, it kind of seemed as though that the Lord was just kind of handing that moderating position to Brother Dupre. He kind of got us organized and, uh, kept things together, so I would still like to recommend Brother Dupre.
Aviles: Arturo Aviles. I feel the opposite. I feel like—in the fear of the Lord—I feel like someone else needs to be the moderator for the Presbytery.
S. Smith: Uh, Stephen Smith, Virginia/West Virginia. Did I misunderstand, or were we, or did he mention that we would pray first, and then… Uh, maybe it would be good for us, would you agree, to on our knees and seek the Lord first, ask God to, you know, put His will in our hearts. Is that acceptable to everyone?
Castellanos: …Brother Smith, I think he said it was open for discussion. It is open for discussion.
S. Smith: It is open for discussion, I…is that where we’re at, then?
Castellanos: It is open for discussion, Brother Smith.
S. Smith: Okay, I’m sorry, I thought we were having prayer first. I apologize. Um, as we proceed onward in this meeting, I, I feel like we’ve all agreed that we want to stay within the guideline of the Assembly ruling. I’ve known Brother Dupre ever since the reorganization of the Church. And I’ve learned that there’s probably no one in the Church who knows the framework of the guidelines and the recommendations as well as he does. I have all confidence that he can help us proceed and stay in the safety of the Assembly rulings. Some of you will remember back in the General Assembly of 1990 he went to the microphone several times. God gave him great wisdom in that Assembly. I won’t go into that realm, but I’m sure many of you can remember that. And again in the Solemn Assembly, God gave him great wisdom in helping the Church find direction. So, I feel like he’s got the wisdom and I know that, uh, and I know that it is imperative that we stay within the guidelines of the Assembly. And I, I’m fully convinced he can help us do that, so I’m, I’m certainly in favor of Brother Dupre doing that.
Castellanos: I, I feel, uh, a little bit opposite, brother. What happened this morning—oh, my name is Jose Castellanos, California/Nevada. I feel quite opposite what happened this morning. I mean, I don’t think the Lord hand it to him. I think he took upon himself as moderator. Um, he called upon for us, all the State Overseers, to be in accordance, to come back at 1:00. And…we agree. But upon that time, he took it upon himself to be the moderator. So, I feel that disqualifies him and I, and I know that Brother Wilda has a love for his Church. And I recommend Brother Wilda to do, to, to, uh, for the moderator for this. Uh, amen.
Horne: James Horne, uh, Regional Overseer, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and West Texas. I am in, uh, favor of Brother Dupre as our moderator. I feel that he has shown a tremendous amount of wisdom here today. Uh, he has not taken over this meeting. He simply has a desire to see us do things right. And I believe all of us here want to do things the right way. I believe Brother Dupre has a tremendous amount of wisdom, knowledge of Assembly rulings, and I feel he would best serve this Presbytery as moderator. God bless you.
Aviles: Arturo Aviles. Uh, this is not the United States Army where we have a, a buddy system. I believe that if we lean upon the Holy Ghost, every one of us would submit ourselves under the mighty hand of God. We would all have the same wisdom. But it seems like there’s a, a, a seniority type of system going on, where—I have a lot of respect for Bishop Dupre, as well as every single one of you men that are sitting here—but I would prefer that the Holy Ghost lead The Church of God instead of man. Because I believe that man is fallible, but God is not, Brother Smith. And this is my first Presbytery meeting and I’m in tremendous fear of God. I would hate to see, I would hate to see what happened in the 5th chapter of the book of Acts. I would not like to see anybody being stricken down dead because we’re being disobedient to God. Now, earlier there was a, a, a, a comment made that most of us, when, when it comes to filling our reports that we say that we will follow all the recommendations according to the Assembly. Well, I feel that’s a fallacy because I, I receive reports in my region where ministers that have been in the Church for many years do not agree with the recommendations of the General Assembly. Brothers, let us submit to God. Let us submit to the Holy Ghost. Let’s put away the buddy system. And let’s seek God for this.
Cannon: Again, my name is H.L. Cannon, Overseer of Ohio and Indiana. I appreciate the nomination a while ago. I don’t feel like that I was really qualified for that. These brethrens that have been nominated, they’re all wonderful people. Speaking of Brother Dupre, I’ve known him for many, many, many, many years. I’ve worked with him. But I feel like that without a moderator he took over moderator, without the permission to be a moderator. And to me that disqualifies him… So I would certainly, as much as I love him, and I’d lay down my life for him, he preached my mother-in-law’s funeral, but I still don’t that that he’s the man for the moderator. And I’m still praying. I don’t know who is.
Pimentel: God bless you all. Juan Pimentel, Overseer of, uh, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Saint Vincent. I believe, brethren, that all of us that are present here, we are, we are the defenders of The Church of God. And, um, obviously we must be obedient what the minutes of the General Assembly says…brother is, that Brother Pruitt said, said that, that the position, the office…must seek men…the position should seek men, and not men the position. He was referring to the government of The Church of God. I believe, brethren, we should have someone, someone that have been present and to the Presbytery…to select the moderator through the Holy Ghost approves. Hermano Dupre, I believe that that is not the right person to be moderator for this office, for this position. I propose that Brother Wilda be the moderator. God bless you.
Acosta: God bless you all. My name is Donaldo Acosta, Overseer of Honduras and El Salvador. It has been said that Brother Dupre took it upon himself to be the moderator. I believe…if someone else would take over, because there was a secretary here. There was a secretary already in place, that means that there was an official…already. It was not communicated to us that there was going to be a secretary upon that time, so there was already a…that was taking place. I know Brother Dupre. There is no other man I know…a humble spirit like Brother Dupre. There might be someone out there, but I don’t know him. I’ve seen his spirit…the blessing, Brother Dupre, he has stopped us from making an error. If he doesn’t get up here with good courage and stands up, then there being bad business taking place. That was left out and needed to happen in Church of God of Prophecy. Men to love the Church…and to respect discipline…The Church of God. That’s why I consider that Brother Dupre, he sets us free, he stops us from a problem. And while he was stopping us from making that problem I was thinking about myself, “Who better to moderate than Brother Dupre?” I don’t think if Brother Dupre… I know it was God who put Brother Dupre to stop from making a bigger mess. In, in The Church of God we have passive men that let the business of The Church of God get out of hand. They don’t stop from, uh, creating errors in The Church of God, then we are not good ministers. God bless you.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. I’d like to ask you a question. I don’t know who you were referring to about the, uh, buddy system?
Aviles: (not at microphone) It was referring to Brother Smith saying that they were good friends, I was referring to that about being the buddy system. If that offended you, I will apologize to you…what I said.
D. Smith: In defense of myself, I did not nominate Brother Dupre because, uh, we are buddies or real close friends. I don’t have that close of a relationship with him. But in him I see wisdom, I see a love for God and the Church, and a man who wants to do what’s right, and obeys Assembly guidelines.
S. Smith: Stephen, Stephen Smith again. Brother Aviles, I’d like to apologize to you if it seemed as though I was trying to present him because of friendship. Uh, I was, I was trying to stress the wisdom that I’ve seen over a period of 13 years. And I believe that, uh, he has the credentials to do this well. Brother Wilda is also my friend. He’s my father-in-law. I’d better be his friend. And I love him deeply. But as far as the knowledge of the operation of the Church, I have all confidence that Brother Dupre understands that operation and that he will help every one of us stay within the boundary lines of that operation. Could I, I’d like to ask a question. I, I’m not hearing Brother Jernigan being mentioned. Was there anyone that wanted to speak in his behalf?… The reason I’m asking, I’m curious, if there’s not a large number there, maybe we could reduce it down to these two to talk about. That’s the reason I was asking, Brother Gaddis.
Gaddis: …I’m Louis Gaddis to represent Haiti. And I, I also feel just as equal to Brother Dupre or anyone else in here that Brother Jernigan has wisdom and understanding. He would make a good moderator. I will have to express that I do have some reservations on an earlier statement that was made this morning by Brother Dupre that, that we would be out of order to even have a prayer before a moderator was selected. I, and this is off the business, but, I’m troubled when we have too much business and too little prayer. So, if, if no one else supports Brother Jernigan, I would submit to you brethren. But I feel like Brother Jernigan would be a good man for it.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I take objection to some statements that was made in regards to Brother Dupre… The statement that, the way I read it, that he was the only one that knew the structure of the Church. Is that what you said?
S. Smith: No, sir. No, sir, I did not say that.
Lester: I understood you to say that he knew the structure of the Church better than anyone else. Now, if that be the case, why are we here? Because, I’ve been around this thing all my life, too. I know how the, how the structure of the Church works. And I also know that there’s other men out here that is just as smart as we are and have responsibility to, uh, be the moderator as anyone else. That, that’s the way I look at this. I feel that, uh, as I said, I feel that Brother Dupre because of his, his outspokenness this morning, that, that he is disqualified from being a moderator. I stand on that. Brother Wilda, Brother Jernigan would make fine moderators. Uh, Brother Jernigan is a man of prayer and he asked for prayer this morning and it was rejected. And so I feel that if we’ll do it the right way—I’m not against, I’m not against Brother Dupre, me and him have worked together since the reorganization—but I’m here to tell you that he’s not the only one who knows the structure of the Church.
Grant: Mike Grant, the Overseer of Alaska. I believe that we all realize that the letter killeth (repeat for translator) the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. There’s not enough laws that have been written, certainly in this case, to legislate righteousness for us for us to know every step we ought to take in this. And we certainly need to consider that we don’t really know anything except that we need God. We have some rules, but they are few. And if we cannot prefer our brethren, if we cannot humbly submit to one another in the fear of God, I wonder how long God will tolerate it. I know God expects us to use wisdom, and not emotion, in the making of these decisions. And sometimes I may not perceive things too well, but I certainly perceive that we’ve got enough division concerning at least two of these brethren that they may have to be eliminated only because of that. All of them, as well as many of you that are here, could not wreck this meeting because if any of us, whoever that moderator might be, got out of line, I believe that somebody would stand up and say, “Brother Moderator.” So I think we have the, the multitude of counselors here, but almost anyone who is willing to obey God and be submissive would be able to moderate this meeting, provided that we are willing to submit to one another. What little wisdom that I have at, at this point I would say that Brother Jernigan may be the only one that we may be able to all agree on. And that’s not against either of the other brethren. Just, we need to have someone that God can use to move forward. Thank you.
Dewberry: Brother Dewberry from Mississippi and Louisiana. All of these three are friends of mine, dear friends of mine. I’ll go home real happy with any one of them that you select. I’m in favor of Brother Dupre for this job, but, and I’m not focusing on the disagreement, I think we’re going to agree. Let me say I appreciate Brother Dupre taking over as he did today. Have you considered what would’ve happened if he had not? …And about prayer being out of order, the brother and me kind of laughed about that today. Who ever heard of prayer being out of order? I think what Brother Dupre meant, you’re talking about the order of the procedure here. It didn’t mean that it was wrong, but following the procedure that, uh…that was…so I’ll not bother you with anything else, but rather than, uh, proclaiming him…I uh, I’m not sure… I’m glad he took care of that. God bless you.
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos, California and Nevada. The first time I came up here I said there’s no seniority among us. And, and I still stand my ground as, as Brother Dupre, he acted as a moderator. We came up here and asked for all the Overseers to be in accordance and then we come back after lunch and it would start at, with official prayer. That was a role of a moderator. And we say we want to do things right, let’s start doing them right. And I’m agreeing, if, if this is the division with Brother Grant that said that between Brother Dupre and Brother Wilda, we could keep going. And I, I would also recommend let’s go on our knees and seek the Lord. We’ve had enough discussion. Uh, to give time to my fellow brethren here, uh, but I think it’s time for us to bow our heads and seek the Lord. Like I said, I was given a scripture in Luke 12 and it said that all things that we do in darkness will come to light. Everything do behind doors, it be proclaimed from housetops. And it made it clear that I had to come here with my mind clear. And I want to seek God’s will. And that’s in our shoulders as the Presbytery of The Church of God. And I, I just, I just, I know, I want, I stand my ground when I said that he, Brother Dupre, took it upon himself to act as a moderator in the, when we were, before lunch, we didn’t break. We didn’t break…no end to the proceeding, the mandate that we talk about, okay, was in the cloud of theocratic government, if that is so, we were not breaking no theocratic government because the session was not been officially made. We didn’t open it officially…what theocratic government, we won’t break it. We were not. And let’s get on our knees, you know, and I, I say, let’s get on prayer. We have been said, it was brought to me to Brother Dupre that we might come here with our own agendas. There’s no one here, I know myself, I accuse no one who has their own private agenda with… I’ll finish with this. You know, sometimes we do wrong. We talk to our fellow Overseers and we, to a certain point, we influence them to think one way. Okay, it’s time for us to start listening to the Lord and not to man. I fear God. That God says, Holy Ghost says, “I’m, I’m taking my Church out of the hand of the flesh.” And put it back in the hands of the Holy Ghost. I want to see that happen. I want to come in prayer. The Almighty God that I serve, the Almighty God that you serve can place in our hearts the same vision and say, “Lord, this is the man You have chosen.” And we could reach a unanimous decision. God bless you, brethren.
S. Smith: I apologize for being back here again. When I sit back down, two or three of you just hold me down. I, I feel like I need to make a few corrections here. It’s difficult to articulate yourself in a way that people might not, uh, misunderstand you. I’m quite sure that I did not say, (repeat for translator) I’m quite sure that I did not say that Brother Dupre was the only one capable, but having watched his conduct in the last 13 years in our General Assemblies, I’ve been very impressed with his wisdom and his knowledge. The Bible does teach that we are to, to, uh, look for qualifications. That people are to prove themselves. For instance, the Bible gives criteria for us to qualify to be bishops. And we must meet those qualifications to be a bishop. I’m not saying that anyone here is not qualified to moderate. All I was saying is that I have been press-, impressed with the wisdom that I have seen in this man and I’m convinced that he understands the rulings and recommendations well enough that we won’t spend a lot of time bogged down over that. I don’t really want to be in a position of defending Brother Dupre about the prayer. You might want to ask him about that when he comes back in. My understanding of what he was doing was asking us to meet the conditions for the meeting. From the time that we gathered here, even before we declare ourself in business, we are the Presbytery in the process of moving this forward. As I understand it, his position was we’ve got to begin right, that the Assembly said the Presbytery come together. By all means, let’s get the Presbytery together and let’s pray. The problem was, we had one here who wasn’t Presbytery and he just wanted us to be faithful to the Assembly ruling before we began. I can’t imagine anyone with an honest heart that would really think Brother Dupre would not want to pray. I want to say one other thing about uh, the idea that he has, uh, dominated. In the model that we have from 1943, as I’m reading it, Brother Evans stepped forward. Uh, he read a telegram, he talked about Brother Tomlinson. Uh, no one accused him and said, “Well, who is he, who is he that he should stand and begin to speak?” But in every session somebody has to begin until we get a moderator. And I appreciate him doing that and I don’t think he was out of order any more, uh, than Brother Evans was back then. Just trying to step in and get the proceedings going forward. And all he did this afternoon was what we agreed to this morning. Let’s pray. Let’s take some recommendations and get the process going for a moderator, and has, has walked out and has left it in our hands. So, I don’t feel he was out of order in that. And I’ll try to sit down and be quiet…
Pimentel: God bless you, brethren. I beg your forgiveness for taking this opportunity once again because I believe it’s necessary… Juan Pimentel, Overseer of Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Saint Vincent. I believe, brethren, I believe that we need to, uh, get all the issues so that we can be able to get to a, a unanimous decision like the Church has done in, uh, all ages. It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost, and then to us. I believe that if, we need to take all the time that’s necessary to pray, uh, to fast, until, until the will of the Lord would be expressed upon every one of us, upon our hearts, those that are here, the administrative, or the Presbytery. We are not in one accord. I would like to read something that I, uh, something that I was…of, uh, the, that past General Assembly, a message by the Holy Ghost and interpretation. It says, “Yes…I have told you, I have told you, I have told you that you, that over you I will fix my eyes. I see you. I see each one of you. Some of us are mine, but I see, I see the other ones. I am God Almighty. There is nothing hidden from me. This is my Church. I will direct my Church. I will open a window…that we have a responsibility to humble ourselves before Him. I see everything. I am God. But none of us, none of us are… Stop doing what you’re doing. Look at me. I am the one that governs. I seen those that are wounded. Look to me. I will heal you. I will heal you. I will lift you up. I will lift you up. Look to me. There’s a short time.” Another part of the message said, “Children, my coming is very close. Stand firm. Stand firm. Children, stand firm. My appearance is very close. If there is something in our hearts, let me help you… O, My coming is very near.” I believe that it’s time that we begin to look for the direction for the Holy Ghost so that we can be unified because the Holy Ghost does not, uh, uh, confuse nobody… And this is the, and I believe this is the will of the Holy Ghost, and this is the will of God. God has put the combination in each one of us that’s here. The Church of God…so that every one of us would be in one accord. One sole purpose. One heart. And one sole decision. That’s what I believe. God bless you.
Hernandez: God bless you. Caleb Hernandez Ramirez Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and Panama, Overseer. It is with great joy that I am here in this reunion of such great importance for the Church. I know that we have moved here, not because it’s our, our will. It’s God that has called us here. He knows everything. He knows every necessity. And I want to tell you that we’re not by ourselves. The Holy Ghost has taken control and all of the nations of Central America, and I believe also in the world where, where the Church is, there’s thousands of brothers that are in prayer for this Presbytery meeting. I know that what we’re doing is not easy. This is something that’s very profound. Someone was telling me this morning, one of our Overseers, I thought that once I got here that all we were going to do was pray, and the unanimous decision that the Overseer would come forth, the, the General Overseer would come forth. But he said, I’ve noticed that all we do is talk, talk and talk, just like if we were in disagreement. The problems that we have, and we’re all in disagreement. The Church has always been liberated. The Holy Ghost has always directed The Church of God and we come to this end, until we all come into one accord. And this is what happened, before we went out to lunch, uh, this is what happened. Brother Dupre said if there’s nobody against what I’m proposing, we’ll, uh, have prayer, we will go, and we all said amen. Nobody was against. When we return he said, we will begin with prayer and in that manner officially the meeting of the Presbytery would be opened. The three men that have been nominated, they’re our brothers. They’re our, our, our fellow workers. They’re good, all three of them. If they were not, they wouldn’t have been mentioned. The, the, the question is that somebody needs to be a moderator and I believe that the best moderator that’s here is the Holy Ghost. Where every one of us we should come to this, uh, unanimous decision, to this unanimous decision. Let’s love each other like brothers. God has always shown us that He’s always…unity and He wants the Church to be submissive and in unity. And it’s us, known, the leadership of the, the, the Church that’s, uh, reunited here in this Presbytery meeting. And we should be the example. Let’s continue believing, Let’s continue believing that Brother Dupre, he only took his position like anybody else that was up here. He did know, he did know that he was going to be placed. That’s why I respect what everybody has said here. That’s why, because in that manner, uh, it seemed like he had placed himself as a moderator. That was not my expression. That’s why I keep thinking, I believe that the other brothers are capable, buy my proposition is that Brother Dupre be the one that moderate this, uh, meeting. God bless you.
Horne: James Horne, Overseer of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and West Texas. I feel, uh, that we all concur on the point that all of these men are capable. Amen. I think that we all can say that we love each and every one of them. It’s a matter of finding God’s choice. I have heard, uh, a lot about Brother Dupre. And, uh, also about Brother Wilda. But I’ve only heard one comment about Brother Jernigan. I feel at that point that that tells me that the consensus of the assembly here are comparing these two men. So I would like us to move, to discuss whether or not we should eliminate Brother Jernigan from the list so we can focus on these two that we are ultimately discussing. It would be easier to have just the two men than the three in our discussions, and that’s the way we’re going anyway. I would like us to have a tremendous season of prayer and then, at the will of the Presbytery, have these two men come in. You could question them with these things that we’ve been talking about and get the answers straight from them. I feel like we can make a more spiritually, uh, and educated decision that way. I want to follow the leading of the Holy Ghost. That’s how I feel at this time.
Voice: Are you making a motion?
Aviles: Arturo Aviles, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Northern Illinois and East Canada. The only reason, I think, that Brother Jernigan, sir, was not really mentioned was because, uh, Brother Dupre took center stage. I mean, everybody seemed to be going, uh, with Brother Dupre. But I feel like Brother Jernigan is a man of God and, uh, maybe I did not, you know… Brother Jernigan is a man who has a lot of wisdom. He loves The Church of God. I don’t know if, before we were dismissed to lunch, I don’t know if you heard Brother Jernigan in the back crying out to the Lord. I still believe in my heart he would do a good job. Amen.
Horne: Again, I do not dispute that Brother Jernigan would not do a good job. I think he would do a tremendous job as any of these other brethren. I’m just trying to get us to move forward. It seemed like our comments were based on these other two men… So I was under the inter-, uh, understanding from that, that our emphasis were on those two men. And with that, I would like to make a motion, uh, that, that we, uh, remove Brother Jernigan from the list due to the, the lack of, uh, conversation about that and more the focus upon these other two, and that we can discuss these other two men in a, in a, more focused manner.
Castellanos: Brother Jose Castellanos, California and Nevada. I believe Brother Jernigan was nominated. There’s not been a lot of discussion about him, but we should not treat him any different that the other two guys. I agree with Brother Horne that we need to go to prayer, but not excluding any one of those men. It’s, it’s not about between Brother Wilda and Brother Dupre. I believe Brother Jernigan would do a fine job, and I oppose the motion—I know it’s not a time for opposing—but for that I can only say for Brother Jernigan, it wouldn’t be fair for him…go to prayer…for him to be in that prayer as well. Thank you.
Horne: I would like to call a point of order because there’s a motion on the floor. The General Assembly has stated that we receive a second, then that becomes open for discussion.
Aviles: Who wants to second the motion?
Leighty: Um, uh, Elliott Leighty, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, and Massachusetts. Uh, we might move forward. I’d like to second the motion because we’re not going anywhere. We’re going to have to narrow this down to one person some time or other. Thank you.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Was that a second, or you just…
Leighty: (not at microphone) Yes, I second that.
Voice: When’s it open for discussion?
Horne: (not at microphone) Now. Now it’s open for discussion.
Castellanos: Brother Jose Castellanos. Uh, I would like to know who’s a moderator. That’s my question.
(Clarification)
D. Smith: (not at microphone) We, we’re supposed to be able to freely speak among ourselves, so at this time anybody who wants to discuss can stand and discuss.
Castellanos: And, I just, if I have to restate what I said previously, uh…I would like to do so, if not, I believe it’s in the record as well. If I would, if I have to say what I said before…it’s open to discussion.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Uh, Brother Horne, you made a motion that Brother Jernigan’s name be removed from the discussion, correct?
Horne: (not at microphone) That’s correct.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) You seconded it, so that’s what we’re discussing, is that, is that right?
Horne: (not at microphone) That is correct.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) The only thing we’re discussing.
Horne: (not at microphone) That’s the only thing, yes.
Castellanos: Okay, then I…I oppose that. I believe that those three men were nominated and… I’m opposed to that motion. And I believe we should go to prayer.
S. Smith: Can I make a point of order first?
Aviles: (not at microphone) You promised you weren’t going to come up here again. (Laughing)
S. Smith: I’ll let you do this… (Laughter) I, I hope I’m following these proceedings correctly, but as I read it, uh, the moderator calls for a determination, he asks for a motion, he asks for a second, and then he asks for those who are opposed. And, as we’ve done in the Assembly, those who oppose the measure are to stand. So those who oppose removing Brother Jernigan at this time should stand. Then, then the question asked…I, I apologize, if you oppose removing Brother Jernigan from the consideration you should stand. It, it, it then says, uh, ask for submission of those who oppose. Are you willing to submit, or do you… Okay, uh, then we call for prayer, after which it says that we will ask again if those opposed are willing to, uh, submit. And if you’re unwilling to submit, he stays on the list and we’ll, we’ll go from there. And if I’m misinterpreting this please let me know—I’m trying to be careful.
(Spanish clarification)
S. Smith: Has this been said in English? Did I miss…
Voice: No, it was me, brother.
S. Smith: Oh, I’m sorry. Okay.
Castellanos: It was just the translation.
Aviles: Just a few words.
S. Smith: Okay, I just didn’t want to translate from Spanish to Spanish and leave me out. (Laughs) Do I understand, then, we should pray, and then, uh, and then those who are still unwilling to submit, then we’ll, uh, withdraw that motion and we’ll, we’ll go from there. And, I want to say this. There’s no doubt others here who know our procedures, and please feel free to—I don’t want to be up here—feel free to come up and, and help guide us through this process. I’m not trying to dominate, but when I, I see the, the order we should follow I want, I want us to be faithful to do it, but anybody, this is open to anybody and everybody to feel free to come and share your heart and, and help us stay in tune with the Assembly and with the Holy Ghost. I’m, I’m sorry, did you want to speak before we have the prayer? I apologize.
Neal: Carl Jr. Neal, State Overseer South Carolina. I appreciate, uh, everything that I’ve heard said all the time I, I, I feel like I, I’m learning. But, uh, gentlemen, there’s not one of us that haven’t experienced maybe a group being called together, given a task, a job to perform, that someone in that group won’t stand out and take the lead. Is that to say he’s a bad man? No. We all had the same opportunity to get the, uh, the meeting underway. And nobody done anything about it. Somebody felt the need to at least get it on track and get started. So, I thank God for each one of you. I would say now, through proper procedure without a moderator, we have selected three brethren to act as moderator. Now, we’re not going to vote on them, but right now we need to pray and see which one of the three God will let us have unanimous agreement on. No sense in discussing how we feel. It’s not God’s feelings. Somebody has to set it in order, so I thank God for Brother Dupre ‘cause if I would’ve jumped up here and done the same I would’ve, I would not want someone to feel like I was out of order. And the nominations are over. Now it’s up to you how, how you want to do it. You going to spend the rest of the day, or are we going to pray for those three men and seek God’s will. God bless you.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Point of order. I believe we’ve been called to prayer concerning Brother Jernigan’s name staying on… So we need to do that.
Castellanos: At this time should we go and pray?
Voices: Yes.
(Prayer: 2:42pm–3:03pm)
S. Smith: As I understand it, we need to ask again, uh, following corporate prayer, the moderator will ask if there are still those who oppose. Are there still those who oppose removing Brother Jernigan from the—okay. Am I out of order? Okay, you still oppose. That’s fine. Does anybody, at this point, have any suggestions on how we could proceed?
Horne: (not at microphone) I need to withdraw that.
S. Smith: Okay, yes, we need to have the motion withdrawn and the…
Horne: Scripture says, let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in Thy sight, O Lord my strength, and my Redeemer. I want the words of our mouths to be inspired of our Lord. I felt, when I made the motion, that we were leaning towards those two parties. I want to again say how much that I love all three of them. And with, uh, believe that any of them could do the job. So with that, I will withdraw that, uh, nomination or, or motion, rather.
S. Smith: Anyone feel free to come up here, if you’ve got a, a suggestion on how we might proceed here. I have an idea, but I don’t want to, to be up front trying to tell us what to do.
Leighty: (not at microphone) I have a question. If we cannot come to an agreement on these three men, what do we do? Do we start over again on nominations?
S. Smith: I would suspect that if we, if we reach a point we all feel we’re really not going to be able to make a decision there, it does say here that the section, if it were a report, that it can be tabled by the moderator. Of course, we don’t have a moderator at this time, so I presume that if we were to table it that we would all agree together that we would, uh, table this and start from scratch again. Is that the direction we want to go, or do we want to talk some more, or is there an idea on something else we can do to progress?
Castellanos: I have a question, brother. Jose Castellanos.
S. Smith: Sure.
Castellanos: Brother Horne, uh, approach me and a…would like to ask for apology to the Presbytery, but this, it goes back to the need of having a person to guide us to select a moderator. A motion was made and nobody ended discussion. That’s, the, it creates confusion…a man that had the discussion. And the only one that could ask for a motion at that time is a moderator. So I just want to bring you to attention, this is the need—that we needed a person to guide us to the beginning so that we would get to the point that we select a moderator to ask, to be asked for a motion, to ask for the end of discussion and ask for a motion. I believe I was called for a point of order. I ask the question, who’s the moderator?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Hey, brother? I believe the entire Presbytery is the moderator until a moderator is chosen. We all have the same voice. We all have the same voice. This, this gathering is moderating this meeting until we choose a moderator.
Castellanos: And, and, and we said we have the liberty when there’s still some discussion, to that it will openly, to be no discussed. There’s a motion before—there’s still some discussion to be taken part, and somebody made a motion. I was still up here wanting to talk, wanting to discuss a point and somebody made a, and Brother Horne made a motion.
Voice: (not at microphone) You disapprove?
Castellanos: Yes, but at that time, I’m just asking, it creates confusion. That’s what we need, the need to have someone to moderate to the part. To the, to the, Brother Smith, you want to add to that?
S. Smith: Yes, well, uh, let’s remember we’ve already made a decision this morning, uh, that this Presbytery will choose a moderator. We’ve already come that far. We can’t go backwards. That’s one decision we’ve made—let’s not back up now (laughs). And having made that decision whatever it takes for us to succeed we need to continue to discuss it until we do what we said we would do. That we would choose a moderator and then we’ve agreed already to let, I believe, Brother Lester, I believe uh, make a motion to bring Brother Nabors back...to read the minutes of the, uh, the Administrative Committee. So we’ve made that decision and so, uh, we need to go from this point and, uh, go forward. Does anyone have an idea how we can do that? And if you want to come up here—if you feel I’m up here too much—please come up here and just take it over. If you have a suggestion on what we can do that will give us some direction here on, on where to go, if we want to bring them in one at a time and let them share their hearts, ask questions, or whatever you want, if you’ve got an idea you think will help us.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I don’t have a suggestion, but I will say this. We’re going to, we’re going to be batting our heads against this wall by this time tomorrow morning unless we can put our own opinions and our own desires out of the picture. I’ll remind you of what M. A. Tomlinson told me the day that the meeting started in 1990. I was in his office and he told me, he said, “Brother Lester, I sent word to my Overseers that I wanted them to come in and pray, and not discuss any of this. But,” he said, “some of them have made up their mind, they have had meetings and already have made a decision,” Brother Tomlinson told me, “on what they were going to do.” Now, we tell, we tell everybody we want the Holy Ghost. But we got to get ourself out of the way before the Holy Ghost can work. For the Holy Ghost, as I said, we will have to get in one mind and one accord for the Holy Ghost to help us in this matter. If you have an idea, you came here with an idea made up of who you wanted for the General Overseer, that’s wrong. That’s wrong. If you’ve come with that intention, you’ve, you’ve made the wrong move. And I, I know—and I’m not going to get into details, but if you want to come and talk to me later, I can tell you some things that has been made to me, some calls—but in order for us to get together. If you’ve got something, if you’ve got something against somebody, it’s going to have to be straightened out before we can ever go anywhere. If you’ve got something against somebody, if I’ve got something against this man, me and him got to work it out, right? And if I don’t work it out, my prayer is going to go unanswered. We’ve got to get it right. We’ve got to come together and let the Holy Ghost take charge of this thing or we’re going to be here till next month. I am convinced that we can come together when we put our differences aside and not worry about who’s going to be who. You know, I don’t know. It may not be anyone in this building that will be the General Overseer. It don’t have to be. M. A. Tomlinson was not in the Presbytery. But they, them men gathered over there at 303 Bible Place in the Upper Room, those Overseers, and Brother A. D. Evans and S. O. Gillespie. You see, here’s the thing about it, the Holy Ghost showed some of them before the meeting ever took place, but they kept their mouth shut. They were showed. Read the minutes. You’ll find out that they were showed that it was M. A. Tomlinson. And S. O. Gillespie made the statement, he said, “I’m not the man.” He said, “I’ll be willing to work with Brother Milton,” because the Holy Ghost had already spoke and said, “Bring forth the younger son.” And they was all in unison. There was no one, they all withdrew the other names. But we’re worried, we’re here, now we spend three hours on a moderator. We’ll be here another three hours and still not have one until men get together and make sure that we’ve got everything out of our lives and out of our hearts against one another. God bless you.
Nsofwa: I’m Alfred Nsofwa. I am Overseer of Zambia. My, my suggestion is that, um, that it would be more preferably if, um, that all three of them, one by one, can come here and be able to ask them questions. After we have asked questions of each one of them, then we can pray and at the end of the day we may be able to come up with one moderator. Amen? So, that’s the way I, I, I, I look at… It’s my suggestion that each one of them would be able to come here, be able to ask them questions, and we would be able to pray, then one moderator be able to come. I know it’s, it’s a, it’s a quite a difficult situation, especially I hate about that the General Overseer have retired, it comes a very difficult situation, but, uh, but the Holy Ghost always, always will be aware. When I look at Luke, chapter 1, verse 57, that Bible says that, it says there is absolutely nothing impossible with God. And also when I look at the, the, when David was being chosen as the, as the king, all the children of, of, were brought but David was not there. When, when prophet Samuel came, uh, and God told Samuel that He’s going to anoint one of the son of Jesse as the king of Israel, Samuel, Samuel, Samuel may had some of the children of Jesse in mind, but when one each one of them came, God said, “No, that’s not the one.” And finally, asked Jesse, “Is there any other son that you have?” And there was told yes, there is someone else, David, and he’s just a young man, he’s just, uh, taking care of sheep. So finally David was anointed. But my emphasis is, God says, the Bible says God does not look at the outward appearance of a person, or whatever, but God looks at the heart. So, the only one who knows the heart to each of these three is God and the Holy Ghost. Amen.
S. Smith: Excuse me, were you making a motion that we bring them in one at a time?
Nsofwa: Yes, let’s make motion. I make a motion that all three of them, one by one…
D. Smith: By procedure, can I say something before you go into the rest of it, or
Castellanos: You’ve got to second the motion, right?
S. Smith: With a motion made, as I understand it, we…
D. Smith: I believe that it should be called to order that a motion is going to be made, correct?
S. Smith: The moderator would, would generally call for that, but in our situation we’ve basically said we’re all involved in the moderation, so I would think he has the privilege of doing that.
D. Smith: You want me to save this until discussion?
S. Smith: If we get a second, here.
Castellanos: We got to have a second, that’s what happened before, we got have the second, then open for discussion. Is there, uh, someone that will second this motion?
Neal: (not at microphone) I would like to ask a question. When we bring the brothers in, if it passes, what kind of questions are we going to ask them? Are they just going to be shotgun questions, or specific?
Castellanos: Brother Neal, I believe we’re looking for a second first, and then we’re going to open for discussion.
Neil: Oh, okay.
Castellanos: Do we have a second?
Mbogo: Mine is different, I want to oppose the motion.
S. Smith: We need a second before we can do that.
Castellanos: We’re going to have to get the second and then we can do that.
S. Smith: Just for the sake of getting our procedure going I’ll second the motion.
Castellanos: Please state your name.
S. Smith: Stephen Smith. And we should ask, I guess, if there are those who are opposed to that motion.
Castellanos: Now it’s time, open for questions.
S. Smith: No, is there any opposed?
Castellanos: Any opposed?
S. Smith: Are you opposed?
Cannon: (not at microphone) I couldn’t hear who was nominated.
S. Smith: No, no one was.
Castellanos: What happened, Brother Cannon, is that uh, the motion was to bring each one of the nominees to come in and ask questions…and that is the motion that was presented.
S. Smith: Is anyone opposed to that?
D. Smith: Everyone that opposes bringing then in one by one, would you stand. Okay. Are you opposing bringing them in one at a time? They need to state why?
Horne: Yes.
D. Smith: Tell us why.
Mbogo: Uh, I am opposed to bringing these gentlemen in here because, I think, by questioning them, to me, it’s not biblical. Gentlemen, I think we are…the way we are moving is right. Just after prayers, I opened my Bible. First Samuel 17, verse 32, it says, “And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine.” …We need somebody that’s willing to fight the philistine…trying to walk ahead of us which is a big, you know, a big amount of work. And God is going to give us David to fight the Philistine. So ours is to let the Holy Ghost take over. By questioning these gentlemen is… And we came to do this job and we are aware we are not through the end of this job. It can take as long as possible, as long as the Lord is in it. So, what is my suggestion? That we let the Holy Ghost take over, even if it means taking a break now, and go to our individual places where we are staying, and go back to pray over the night and see you again tomorrow. God bless.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) It’s too early for that.
Horne: (not at microphone) Is that a motion?
S. Smith: (not at microphone) I don’t think so, I think it’s just a request.
D. Smith: I, I came before he made the motion so am I…
S. Smith: (not at microphone) I don’t think he actually made a motion, he just, a suggestion.
D. Smith: Okay. How many believe the Holy Ghost always does things right?
(Amens)
D. Smith: Now, this is certainly not in a spirit of belittling anyone, but this, uh, morning Brother Wilda was willing to let Brother Nabors moderate until we chose a moderator, which was contrary to our Assembly guidelines. There was no ill intent on Brother Wilda’s part whatsoever. Brother Jernigan wanted us to pray as the Presbytery when there was a non Presbytery member among us. Brother Dupre was not against prayer, but was against proper procedure not being followed. So in doing what was right, I feel Brother Dupre did that. But if we cannot come to a unanimous agreement, then we need to consider rescinding these recommendations, nominations, and see who the Lord wants.
Horne: (not at microphone) Is that a motion?
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Is that a motion?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) It’s not a motion, that’s a suggestion.
Horne: (not at microphone) Okay.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Do you want to make that motion?
Lester: I would like to make the motion—Ralph Lester, Tennessee—that we rescind these nominations and bring them back in as a Presbytery and then let’s, and let’s open it up for the nominations. We should be unanimous. We don’t need a whole bunch of nominations. We’re not a, we’re not a political group. Surely to God we can come together and meet and, and let God direct us. And, uh, maybe you’ve got some idea. Then let us break, rescind this and bring these men back in. They’ve been out in the heat long enough. And I’m making a motion to bring them back.
Castellanos: Now, we going to ask for a second?
Horne: I’ll second Brother, uh, Lester’s motion.
Castellanos: Please state your name.
Horne: Uh, James Horne, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and West Texas.
Neal: (not at microphone) I’d like a clarification of that motion. Are we, by, by bringing the three men back in, we’re going to, uh, nullify their nominations for, uh, the position.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Correct.
Neal: They’re nullified now?
Castellanos: Yes.
Neal: We’re back to where we was this morning. And this is good business…
Lester: Do we want them to come back in now?
Castellanos: Hold, hold on, brother.
S. Smith: Let’s, let’s make sure there are none opposed to doing that. If there’s none opposed then it’s, it’s accepted that we’ll do that.
Castellanos: Anyone opposed? I second it.
Voice: People opposed?
S. Smith: Okay. It’s done.
Castellanos: Brother Cannon?
Cannon: (not at microphone) Do I understand…
S. Smith: Okay, bring them back.
Cannon: I just wanted to make it clear that I understand (coming to microphone). Again, my name is H.L. Cannon, Ohio and Indiana. In rescinding these motions that we’ve made does that mean they’ll be taken out of consideration for being re-nominated? And that we will, then as the Presbytery nominate who else we feel like nominating. That’s all I wanted to know, I wanted to be sure I was clear Thank you.
Voice: (not at microphone) Can somebody answer?
Horne: (not at microphone) Yeah, that needs an answer.
Castellanos: The brother ask a question.
Grant: (not at microphone) Can the person who made the motion answer that question?
Lester: (not at microphone) Not yet.
Grant: (not at microphone) But it’s a question on the motion. Brother Cannon doesn’t understand. He wants to make sure he understands and you made the motion…
Lester: The motion I made was that we rescind these nominations and bring them back into the Presbytery. And, if I remember what I said correctly, that we would make new nominations. Is that right? Is that what we a, talked about?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) But what he’s asking, these three could not be nominated again?
Lester: Well, that’s what I would see because we haven’t come to no agreement with the three, so we need to, uh, if, if we can’t come to an agreement on those three we better find somebody. We, we, we better find the one, then, that we can agree on and get on with this or we’re going to be here until our beards grow down to here (laughs). And brethren, we’ve got too much to do to win the, to win the world by bickering here. Let’s get back to doing it.
Castellanos: Brother, uh, Brother Acosta, you got to come up here, brother.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Now, we have a motion and a second. We’re at a point we’re supposed to ask if there’s any opposed.
Grant: (not at microphone) Well, we did that and then the question came up if, for clarification.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Okay.
Grant: (not at microphone) We asked if there was any opposed, none was.
Voices: …
Grant: (not at microphone) Then we made the clarification. We may still need clarification because others may not have understood the motion.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) We have a brother here who’s not sure what we’re saying here, that, he was ahead of me and I, I don’t want to get in front of him… Explain where we’re at.
Castellanos: He understands.
S. Smith: Okay.
Castellanos: He understands.
S. Smith: Okay.
Pimentel: God bless you, brethren. My name is Juan Pimentel, Overseer of Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, and Saint Vincent (clarification) Saint Vincent. I believe, brothers, we got to be careful. In, in, and search, all of us in one mind, one accord. I believe that we nominated three brethren and one of them that would be serve as a moderator. And have not come to one of them. Then we must go back and seek God one more time, so God would take control. We got to make the decision to take control, what’s going to take place. The early Church, they were in unanimous accord and listened to what… the early Church… Whoever’s going to know, uh, succeed Judas, and the Church, uh, gathered to go ahead and make that decision. But let’s see how the, uh, Church got to that conclusion…Everyone, Joseph, Joseph, he had, uh…praying it was said, you Lord, you know the heart of everyone to show us of this two have you elect…would take the part of this ministry. And it would be an Apostle that one who fall…Judas, for, for for…and they cast lots…Matthias and, and, and he was counted, and he was counted, he was called to be a part with the other eleven. Uh, we are the continuation of the early Church. We have to, uh, seek that God Himself would place…on each one of our hearts that we are present. Who is the man? Who is, going to moderate? Let’s get rid of everything that’s necessary so the perfect will of God might take place. We’ve got to believe, brethren, we are in, in the will of God and this is what the Lord wants. There ain’t going to be no, no, no no, problem to second the motion. Something is, is, is not right and we are responsible that everything be according to the guidelines so God can manifest and what, what pleases Him to His Church. Thank you. God bless you.
S. Smith: Uh, we have a motion and a second. I, I wanted to ask Brother Lester, in that motion he said that none of these brethren could be considered again. I’m not sure any of us would feel comfortable saying that the Lord might not want to use Brother Wilda, Brother Jernigan, or Brother Dupre. But could we modify that to say that in this next round of discussion that they would not be considered, and if we still cannot come to a conclusion they could be considered later. Would that be satisfactory?
Lester: Uh, we have no objections to that. Except we, we want to go a different route to start with, and then if we don’t come to a consensus there, then it, it might be that it would have to, one of them would become, that would stand out with the Holy Ghost or something.
S. Smith: You made the second, didn’t you, Brother Smith? Who made the second on this one?
Castellanos: No, Brother Horne.
S. Smith: Brother Horne made the second?
Horne: (not at microphone) Yes.
S. Smith: Are you agreeable to that modification?
Horne: And his response again was, I’m trying to, uh, record everything.
S. Smith: Okay, that when we bring them back they’ll not be immediately available to re, uh, re-recommend, but further on we might do that.
Horne: Yeah, that’s fine.
S. Smith: Alright, we’ve made that change, then. Am, am I out of order in, as I understand procedure asking if there are any opposed to doing that? I’d like to get us past this and then if you want to talk certainly you can do that, but if there’s none opposed to that. Is everybody satisfied with that? Are you opposed to doing that? Alright, come right ahead.
Acosta: My name is Donaldo Acosta, Overseer of Honduras, El Salvador. God gave the government to The Church of God. He’s not going to be, uh, present to solve any, uh, business. And He has given the authority to, uh, to go ahead and take care of business. And, and the business also teach us that when there’s a…let us put it on table…ask those who are opposed to submit. If not, the business will go ahead and proceed. And the, the people, those who opposed to submit. God has given us authority, has gathered us together. And He has given us authority…whatever written down in earth, written down in heaven. And He has given that authority to the Church. And if we are not capable or able to take, uh, to take this business, what has been here, a leaning towards… And many of others…what is just. And here is to submit. What if God has chosen this man? I, I, I’m sure that if you were to elect another three and people are going to be against them. Uh, I oppose because we choose these brothers, praying to God. I believe that the prayer has to be respected, that we cannot be praying with, playing with prayer and elect every other time and then we will never finish. I believe we have to get a, come to a conclusion with these brothers we have chosen. And I believe that is what we have chosen because they are able to do so. And let’s, let’s, let’s continue what the Lord has given us to us.
S. Smith: Okay, as far as I know we just have one that’s opposing. Are you willing to submit, brother? Is there another one opposed? Okay? So you want to stay with the three, is that my understanding? And continue…
Neal: Brother Neal, South Carolina and I, you know, the first time they asked for opposements I was going to the restroom, uh, but I oppose on the same ground that Brother Acosta does. We’ve already accepted them three brethren and prayed over them, so now we just going to throw them away? I think that that’s wrong and we’re ignoring our prayers. And I think we, I think that we ought to go ahead and, and, I, I, I, I know that this man, whoever is accepted is not going to be the moderator of the General Assembly—he’s not the General Overseer, he’s just the moderator of what takes place here. And, and, and any one of them that is selected, the other two will give as much of their information and support to the moderator as you and I are going to. God bless you.
S. Smith: The, the only reason, if, if we’re at an impasse, if we are at an impasse and we don’t feel we can proceed, we, we should obey these, we should follow through with these motions. But if you feel like we can proceed and get somewhere, by all means, we should continue. Are ya’ll willing to submit to it, or do ya’ll, uh, want us to go on? You’re in opposition, too? Come on.
Coronel: Juan Coronel, Overseer of Argentina and Brazil. I oppose. I oppose that we come and nominate other brethren. I believe that the Lord, the Lord has a man of the Presbytery that know the Lord, that know the Holy Ghost. Uh, I, I, I feel in my heart who would have support for moderator and I can’t choose another one because that’s what I feel in my heart. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not talking to a specific individual. I’m, I’m, I’m talking the people that God has chosen us to represent Him in this earth. But I understand, uh, perfectly. I’m not a friend of, of, of either one of them, but I have enough understanding and God has given me His Holy Ghost to guide me to all truth. He talks to me. If the Holy Ghost have not talked to you then you have a problem. Let’s, let’s continue on working with these three of our brothers. I, I feel that, I feel that assurance from the Holy Ghost. I, I oppose though to seek other nominations. Uh, uh, we are responsible here. That we just, uh, make prayer 10 minutes and asking God to help us and guide us to what we need to do. All, all of us here knew that this was going to take place. All of us have talked to our, our General Overseer, Brother Pruitt. And we knew each, each one of us that this was going to take place. We also was known the brother could not be in the Assembly. Brother Pruitt was for good…and that condition that he was not able to moderate that Assembly. And I talked to Brother Pruitt. We have to come to a knowledge of who is our Overseer. And the Holy Ghost could, would talk to us and guide us to who would be the next General Overseer. I, I, I’ve prayed myself so the enemy would not confuse me. And, and I, and I told to this individual and somebody gets us the Holy, the Holy Ghost says this and the, the, the rest of us don’t feel the same that, that person has a right, that person has the right to test that spirit, if it’s of God or not of God’s. I’m glad we have experience, but I have enough experience and God would not embarrass me because the Word of God, it, it, it goes parallel with the, with the Holy Ghost. That’s why I’m still here serving Christ and His Church. God, God would take control of those who are not His. And I believe God would be talking to hearts through, through His Holy Ghost. Brother, brother just recently talked, the book of Acts to, uh, to elect who that was going to replace Judas. That, that happened before the Holy Ghost, that would happen before the Holy Ghost came down to earth. And, and what they did is they, they cast luck upon them. The, the Lord said very clear that the, the Holy Ghost will be with us. And He speaks to my heart. The Holy Ghost is a, a, a, a person that was sent from heaven to guide us to all truth. Let’s use the Holy Ghost in our lives. And if I ask you a question, are you filled with the Holy Ghost, I believe you are going to say yes. I pray, every other time to, to see what the Lord wants. I’m, I’ve come here prepared for the decision the Holy Ghost has placed in my heart. And we have three people. If you love God and love the Church, let the Holy Ghost guide you. Here, uh, uh, it’s real clear, in the final God will have His way. God will have His will. And this is His Church. God bless you.
Lester: I’ve been asked to, uh, that we rescind the motion to, uh, to, uh, rescind these men’s nominations and bring them back in, and then, if, if need be, why, we’ll just go a different route to find the will of God. Is that my understanding? So, uh, would you, I rescind my motion.
Castellanos: You withdraw your motion?
Lester: Yeah.
Castellanos: Okay.
Lester: And Brother, uh, Horne rescinds his. Okay.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) So, that should take us back to where they come in one at a time.
Lester: Okay. Do you want then in one at a time, or all three at once? One at a time? Okay. Everybody in favor, one at a time?
Castellanos: If we all in favor one at a time, I believe there’s…
Lester: Which one do you want first?
S. Smith: Well, should we get a motion and a second to do that, or…
Castellanos: I believe, uh, brother from Zambia, you were opposed. He was opposed to being one at a time.
Lester: Who was?
Castellanos: Brother, brother from Zambia.
Lester: Brother Nsofwa, were you opposed to bringing them in one at a time?
Castellanos: No, um, the brother from the back. I’m sorry.
Voices: …
Lester: Are you, uh, are you opposed to bringing them in one at a time, brother?
Voices: …
Castellanos: What’d he say?
Voice: (not at microphone) He’s not opposed.
Lester: Oh, okay. Everyone in favor? Any opposed? Okay. We, just bring one at a time in.
S. Smith: Wait, are you opposed? You satisfied? Okay?
Voices: …
S. Smith: Did we get a motion and a second?
Grant: (not at microphone) No. No, we just decided to do it by unanimous agreement.
S. Smith: Oh, okay, okay, I’m not sure there.
Voices: …
S. Smith: That’s fine, if everybody’s satisfied, I’m sorry. I apologize. Okay.
Lester: Now…
S. Smith: Do we need a break before we go and do that, or do we want to continue?
Lester: These men are sitting out there in that car, they’ve been out there for three hours.
Voice: Well, another hour won’t hurt them.
S. Smith: Two of them will still be out there (laughs).
Lester: Uh, do you, how many of you need a break? For about 10 minutes, 10 or 15 minutes to get up and walk around.
S. Smith: They might want to come in and get a drink.
Lester: Okay. You want to let them come in and get a drink.
S. Smith: Could we do that, a 15 minute break?
Lester: Alright, we’ll have a 15 minute break. We’ll convene back at 4:15.
Adjourned at 4:00pm
4:18pm
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Have somebody who hasn’t spoken stand up there and do something (laughter).
Lester: We have Brother, we have Brother Jernigan in here and the other two are out in the car. So, now what do you want to do?
S. Smith: I, I think the determination of the Presbytery was we would, uh, open the door to ask questions of these brethren, whatever you feel on your heart, uh, and, and give them the opportunity to answer you. Unless there’s some other way you want to do it. Brother…uh, where is Brother Jernigan? Uh, Brother Jernigan, would you like to come forward and maybe, uh, I’ll raise this microphone about a foot and they can ask any question that they’d like to ask. And when the questions are finished with him, then I guess we’ll ask one of the others to come in.
Jernigan: Thank you, Brother Smith, I, was caught completely off guard. I did not know that I was not supposed to be in here, so, but I only know to, uh, suggest to you today that I feel probably the least of any of you brethren here. And I do not have any idea the questions, the questions that you may have for me, but I’ll assure you that I will answer to the best of my ability.
Aviles: Any questions? Hermano Estep?
Estep: Brother Jernigan, I respect you. You’re my brother and I hope that you won’t take offense to this question. I would simply like for you to state your desire as moderator of, of this, uh, Presbytery meeting. I would like to know what the desire of your heart would be for the ultimate end of this presbytery meeting.
Jernigan: Thank you, Brother Estep. Two things that I would desire to respond to you. First and foremost is to find the perfect will of God and for God’s direction to be upon each and every one of us. Second of all, it has been my prayer for several days that this body of men be unified together, each and every one of us, as the Presbytery, respecting and honoring one another in our particular position that we fill. But first and foremost, if we cannot find the mind of Christ and have His favor, we must continue until we find His favor. And I cannot go beyond those two bounds that I have spoken to you, but I certainly also would want to state that each and everything be done, that it be according to the General Assembly guidelines and for us to stay within those bounds. And I know that I made the statement that I had two specific responses that I wanted to make… but I also want to leave this thought with you. I truly believe in my heart that we’re serving a God that’s going to unite us together. God is that big and He’s our God. He’s not one or two…that is represented. He is our God and I submit all unto Him today and I humbly stand before you as a man…and I’ll assure you of one thing, I, I feel very small. But I do love you brethren and I want to see us find the favor of God…in whatever we do.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Thank you, Brother Jernigan.
Coronel: Brother Jernigan, I’m not going to tell you I love you because, uh, God has told me to love you. God knows my heart. And He knows your heart. We need help today and what I want you to say, if you can say it, uh, that if you feel like you’re the person that can moderate, uh, that if you feel it in your heart, uh, when God places that desire you can feel it in your heart and this would be of a great help to us if you could tell us if you feel it in your heart to be the moderator of this business service.
Jernigan: First of all, I would tell you that I totally feel unqualified. But I will remain as one of the selection simply under the fear and direction of God…and I could not, I could not tell you from my heart that I desire to be moderator. I could not. And I would be more than willing to step aside and let this body of men, led by the Holy Ghost, choose someone else. And as I stand here before you, great fear is upon me because the heaviness and responsibility that will be upon the man that will fill this position. So no, Brother Coronel, I have no desire, no motives whatsoever…but only be submissive and willing…to the Holy Ghost.
(Prayer)
S. Smith: Do you mind if I ask if there’s any, any more that want to ask a question of Brother Jernigan? Yes?
Grant: Mike Grant, Alaska. I would have one question for you. Brother Jernigan, are you willing to call us to prayer and fasting in this, if necessary.
Jernigan: That would be first and foremost, is to call us to prayer. And I know many of you brethren have fasted and prayed for this meeting, but it must begin with prayer. It must begin with prayer, opening it up to God to find God’s Spirit to lead us…
Grant: My question was, to fasting.
Jernigan: To fasting and prayer.
Grant: Prayer and fasting. We can’t…any other way.
Jernigan: That would certainly be acceptable. Yes. No doubt, there are brethren here that are still fasting right now.
Castellanos: I’m Jose Castellanos, California/Nevada. Brother Jernigan, uh, I can see a humble spirit. And I believe that is a good characteristic of a, uh, moderator. And I’m not going to say you will be the moderator, but if you were…my question is, do you think if someone in their heart comes to this place trying, want, wanting to be the moderator, isn’t that very same reason disqualify him from being moderator? Thank you.
Jernigan: Thank you, brother. I don’t believe that any man should seek the position. God will always have men that He will call. And I truly believe that God’s men are men that are not seeking after position, but God is seeking them. And I truly believe that that’s the way that it’s going to be from here forward. And it’s like I was talking to one of the brethren. Qualifications, many times we look at and we can only see the outward. We can see, uh, an humble spirit manifested. We can see a prideful spirit manifested. And all of these things that we can see with our natural eyes, the true qualifications come from God because He sees the heart. And our ultimate goal should be to seek the favor of God and to be pleasing to Him. Yes, in response to your question, dear brother, whether it be me or anyone else, anyone who would seek this position should be disqualified.
Aviles: Arturo Aviles, Wisconsin. Before I came here, Brother Jernigan, two weeks before I got here God had already placed Brother Jernigan’s name in my heart. That’s one of the reasons why I nominated him, because I want to be obedient to God.
Acosta: These are only questions that, that the Presbytery can make. These are only questions, they are not supposed to be commentaries. But, God help me, the brother had open the door for me to make, uh, a commentary. Why God has placed his name in my heart, He has placed a name in my heart of another person. And one thing that I would like to say here, we cannot be, uh, led by our sentiments or, or be led by our sentiments or because of emotions. Uh, because that could lead us to a, a decision that would, uh, uh, bring ruin to us as a Church. Every time that I’m in, in Church business, uh, I’ve always tried to be, uh, cold, or…think with my heart and with my head and my spirits because, uh, we can make a mistake placing our beliefs in our emotions, and we, we need to reflect on this. We are not looking for a General Overseer, just a moderator. I would like for us to, uh, steer, steer away from the commentaries. I have had Brother Jernigan in my, my nation. I know about his testimony, but my heart is inclined to lead, uh, to lead me to another person. Somebody said here that we need to pray and fast. I’ve had, we’ve been fasted and prayer for two months now. Right now in Honduras we’ve got about 80 sisters who are fasting and praying, they are praying for this. We prayed at the hotel. I want it to be the Holy Ghost, not our emotions, to take us to a decision, to make a decision. If God, if God does it, there should not be an interrogation on our part, in our heart. That’s what I want to see.
Voice: …
D. Smith: Brother, Brother Jernigan, I do respect you very highly. I would like to, uh, ask a question that, uh, would be for my clarification. I think it was last year, last year at the Assembly, (repeat for translator) I believe it was last year when you stood in opposition of the Ways & Means Committee report and then, and then later you got back up on the stage and, and changed your mind. I would just like to know for, for my sake, what happened so quick. I know you can change your mind—we all have that right—I was just wondering if the Lord moved on you that way or what happened…
Jernigan: Thank you Brother Smith, I’ve had much time to reflect on what I have stated and said in the General Assembly in my response. I can simply state to you what that God dealt with me about. God dealt with me about the spirit of submission and for me to stand before that General Assembly and for me to say that I would not submit whatsoever, that’s what God began to deal with me about. It wasn’t a matter of issue, that it was right or wrong, but God was dealing with me about the spirit of it…if I refused to accept it, that’s one thing, but if I was not willing to submit and find the perfect will of God in my heart and my soul and I can, I can tell you that I have done research from that General Assembly, looking at the findings, and I have found that it is certainly something that God would help us to understand and to come together and to be able to say, “Lord, if it is the best for your Church, then I’m willing to submit to it.” But I want to make an emphasis here today. God was dealing with me about the spirit of submission. The spirit of submission. The same way that He will deal with us today about decisions to be made, about the spirit of submission. And we must be men that is willing to submit to the will of the Holy Ghost. But I would say to you that what the General Assembly decides upon through the direction of the Holy Ghost, that is the direction that I would go. That the findings that the General Assembly finds through the Holy Ghost, I want to follow those guidelines. I hope I answered your question, Brother Smith.
Aviles: Anybody else want to ask a question?
Neal: Brother Neal, South Carolina. I’d like to ask Brother Jernigan a question, what he sees is the, duty of the, uh, moderator ought to be as far as what he allows and what he disallows.
Jernigan: Honestly, my brethren, I’m feeling my way today answering some of these questions, with never filling the role of a moderator such as this meeting here. My only answer to that, Brother Neal, would be to follow the guidelines that have been found in our General Assembly Minutes and be directed by God’s Spirit… Did that clarify it for you, brother?
Neal: I guess, I guess I was getting to the point of the authority that you would overrule something like that as far as…
Jernigan: Brother Neal, I could not answer that question unless that we had an agenda to go by that would reveal what authority that a moderator had. I, I do not know brother.
Leighty: (not at microphone) Uh, brethren, I just to go with what Brother Neal was saying, I thought we mentioned that the guidelines as in a regular General Assembly business meeting, the moderator had the authority to, to, uh, you know, as in the General Assembly business. Is that not—I thought we answered—did we answer that earlier?
Jernigan: Then I wasn’t in here, I wasn’t in here…
Leighty: …because you were not in here. I thought we answered that, that the moderator would have the same authority as the moderator of a business conference. Does anybody remember doing that? We said that it’d be the same as in business conference, right?…to mention because I know that you were not in here.
Aviles: Any more questions? Next? Is that it, brethren? You have a, that’s it? You satisfied with the answer?
Neal: What I was looking for was to know that the moderator knew the bounds, and Brother Jernigan knows the bounds, where he can operate, even though we decided that it should be logical that he can’t have his own agenda, that he’s going to, he must take a, and then, by, by his own agenda I mean disallow someone who wants to speak. And, and…and he answered it right.
D. Smith: We’ve had a lot said in this meeting. If you have anything in your heart against anybody that it needs to be made right. And I’d like to ask Brother Jernigan if he has anything in his heart against anybody.
Jernigan: Absolutely not, Brother Smith, there’s nothing in my heart. We as men may not agree on all things, but I am beyond that point. That I want every one of you to know that I love you, and I hold nothing in my heart, God as my witness, that we could all stand before God with a pure and clean heart…
Aviles: Everybody satisfied? Going once, twice, gone.
(Brother Jernigan vacates the building; Brother Dupre enters)
Aviles: Anybody have any questions?
Estep: With all due respect, Brother Dupre—Donald Estep, Southern Illinois, Kentucky—I’ll ask you the same question I asked Brother Jernigan. I would like to hear what would be the desire of your heart as an ultimate goal for this, for this meeting as moderator. And I hope that I asked that as near to the same as possible. I just, what, what you would like to see take place here. I know the ultimate goal is to find a leader for us. But as moderator, how, how and what would you like to see as an ultimate goal in this… And again, I hope that I’ve asked that as near as possible to the other question and I hope you won’t take offense to that.
Dupre: When you use the term “ultimate goal,” that’s not difficult to answer. Ultimately, my hope is, as moderator, is to help us to stay on track spiritually, that when we leave here we will know that we have found the mind of God for the selection of an Interim General Overseer. I refer back to something that I read in our history books, and I think it’s a quote from the Bahamas’, uh, National Overseer back under A. J. Tomlinson. Uh, his comment to the Presbytery then was, that it, it says little about the upper level leadership of the Church if they cannot come to a decision that would potentially be acceptable to the Assembly as well as the Holy Ghost. And I think as Presbytery members it would be a good goal for all of us to try to, strive, strive to find the mind of the Spirit so that when we got to the General Assembly we could circumvent any conflict that could occur. That’s not to say that that takes the final decision out of the hands of the General Assembly. That is, that is the safety valve for the Church. If we were to miss the will of God, it would ultimately be my goal to help us not miss the will of God.
Aviles: Questions?
Neal: Brother Neal, South Carolina. Before I forget…make myself straight. As the moderator of the service here, with the authority the moderator has, would you, uh how, how do you see your position in the light of a discussion?
Dupre: The, uh, I see, as far as my position, and I believe it is consistent with the rulings of the General Assembly, back a number of years ago, there was a question that had been answered by the General Assembly concerning the involvement of the moderator in discussions. What had been worked out at that time was that if a moderator was going to participate in the discussions, he would need to, to select someone else to come up and moderate and he would take the position of a participant. When the Assembly revisited that issue, and they found, they discovered that the moderator did not have the authority to select another moderator and take that position, but he did have the right to engage in communication…uh, back and forth from the participants. And I would, I would not feel uncomfortable if I felt that I need to participate with any information that I felt would be valuable to help us make a decision. I don’t see myself as participating in the decision, but I do feel according to the Assembly rulings I would have, I would have the right of participation in the discussion.
D. Smith: Brother, uh, Dupre, I believe some misunderstood this morning when the, uh, question of prayer came up. I would like you to clarify that you were not against prayer, but before prayer, proper procedure needed to be followed.
Dupre: That is correct. Uh, I, I would’ve been in favor of prayer when I come through the door. My concern at that time was that it was not just conveyed concerning prayer, but also reading of a report. And if you will remember, brethren, before we, we went to the break, I offered for us all to pray together. Uh, while we were all together. I, I believe prayer is appropriate. But if prayer puts us in business session, wherein we begin doing business that’s not proper, I would be against praying and putting ourselves in position. Uh, uh, you know, my, my concern is not who you select, my concern is that we do what we do and please the Holy Ghost. And, and prayer is always in order. But at that point we were dealing with a procedural problem that I wanted clarified so that I could face the people that I serve in North Carolina.
Coronel: Brother Dupre, you, this morning, uh, you made a comment that you were doing business right and that you had done, uh, some study on the meeting in 1943. And I understand that you also have recognition of the meeting in 1990. What I understand, something was awakened inside you, a responsibility within you. I want you to tell me if you’re ready, uh, to maintain that responsibility that you felt. Uh, and if you feel secure in your heart that the Holy Ghost has put that responsibility within your heart, uh, we would also, we would also receive the same feeling from the Holy Ghost.
(Request to please identify yourself each time you come to the microphone)
Dupre: Ray Dupre, North Carolina (laughs).
Aviles: Arturo Aviles, Wisconsin.
Dupre: I am committed to correct business whether I’m chairman of this committee or not. If I take up the chairmanship by request of this Presbytery, I will work as hard to keep us going in proper procedure as I would if I was sitting as a participant in this meeting, I, I am committed to that. My study of the 1990 Presbytery meeting—and that’s no reflection on any of the brethren here that was in that meeting because I know that you had a very difficult time in that meeting—but I, I do see at some time where it has, at a point, that it has nothing to do with this meeting. I would be glad to share my thought, but I’ve seen numerous times in reading that document where neglecting proper procedure became a dangerous thing for that Presbytery... And I guess that’s why that was awakened in me, Brother Coronel. Because I don’t want to see us make that mistake. So my commitment is that I will work that way whether I am chairman or not in this meeting.
Grant: I have the same question for you. Uh, Mike Grant, Alaska. Are you willing to call us to prayer and fasting if we can’t come to an answer any other way…
Dupre: I’m ready to do that once a chairman is put in place and the reason is, when I read the accounts of the 1943 Presbytery meeting, the Spirit of the living God entered into that meeting and brethren were able to dialog with one another without a feeling of threat. If you study that document, brethren felt liberty to read the scriptures, brethren felt liberty to give types and shadows, they worked in harmony as they dialoged with one another. And I believe, after this day, if we going to get to the place we can work in that way, we can dialog with one another, we are going to have to do some praying and fasting so we can get on that spiritual plain that we are willing to let the Lord speak to us, as well as through us.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. Uh, Brother Dupre, I would like for you to respond to, uh, I’d like for you to respond to, when you came to this meeting today, you had no intentions of trying to moderate or take over the meeting. But I want to confess to you that I was looking to you to kind of bring direction to the meeting.
Dupre: I will confess to this Presbytery at this point that it was never in my mind nor heart to take over chairmanship. But I will tell you, as I prepared for this Presbytery meeting, I begged God to let me come here without my mind being bothered with what I would do if certain scenarios would occur because I wanted to be free from that. But two nights ago, as I wrestled in bed and as I listened to the cry of the people that I served, I felt a deep responsibility to address issues unofficially before we got into an official meeting. I did so by unction of the Spirit and I would do that again because I owe that to the people I serve. But it was never my intent to take over chairmanship or to override the views of anybody else in this Presbytery. I only respond as the Spirit directed me so that we could be sure that we would be on safe and solid ground as we carried out our responsibilities. I have no, uh, ulterior motives, I have no hard feelings towards anybody. I do have very valid and legitimate concerns and I’m not timid to share those concerns in the right spirit. And my confidence in each one of you, is that you should feel the same way as I feel because we will have to face our people when we leave here. And if we don’t have the integrity enough to share our valid concerns, giving valid reasons, regardless if we take a chance of being misunderstood to take over a meeting. There was no meeting to take over. That’s by, my opening comment to Bishop Nabors was I would like to share some concerns that I have before we officially go into this meeting.
Castellanos: Any other questions? Brother, uh, Dupre, I have a question—Brother Jose Castellanos—I’ll ask the same question. If you come to this place thinking that you can serve as a moderator, knowing in order that that’s up to the Presbytery to elect. That very same feeling or reason will disqualify you. Thank you.
Dupre: Brother, I didn’t come to this meeting thinking that I was qualified, to serve only as I was called to serve… I would hope that all of us are qualified to moderate any business meeting in The Church of God. As uh, Presbytery people, we should have qualifications, but I don’t feel that I’m any more qualified than any one else in this meeting, nor did I expect to even be chosen, or nominated. Uh, I, I, I don’t want to fail God. And if there’s anything I can be helpful in… As I stated before, my commitment to this entire meeting is consistent whether I’m chairman or moderator, or participant. And that’s, that is how I feel. My commitment is wherever I serve; I want to serve in a way that the Holy Ghost will be pleased to visit us. I feel the Holy Ghost in this place. I feel the presence of the Holy Ghost… I feel the Lord is helping us, some of our very valid concerns, and I’m not afraid of dialog because I believe that’s how we come to one mind and one heart. And I’m very encouraged. But I certainly didn’t come to this meeting hoping, aspiring or desiring to…
Castellanos: Brother, uh, Dupre, I just didn’t target you, uh. I made a general um, But the question was would that disqualify someone, if they had a feeling in their heart, would that disqualify for him as being a, a moderator.
Dupre: A man’s heart feelings does not disqualify them. It is when he shares that with another to influence others to his heart is when that man is disqualified. As we stay in the work long enough, we all will feel things from the Spirit. That doesn’t mean we have to share that with anybody. My experience in the Church has taught me that however strongly I feel about something, if I wait that out, I will find that it’s the Holy Ghost…the same Spirit that made me feel that way will make another feel that way. And that person then can share that without being… But a man’s heart feelings doesn’t disqualify him… It’s when he violates his heart with an ulterior motive.
S. Smith: Uh, Brother, uh, Steve Smith from Virginia and West Virginia. I just wanted a clarification on the question. Uh, were you asking if a person desires to do it, if he’s seeking that position in his heart, would he be disqualified, or were you saying if he, if he just feels perhaps the Lord moving him in his own heart that way…
Castellanos: (not at microphone) The question, brother was—again, Jose Castellanos from California/Nevada—uh, the question uh, Brother Pruitt adder—I mean, Brother Dupre addressed—is that if he feels in his heart and he comes with that feeling…
S. Smith: Okay, thank you. I just wanted to be sure I understood.
Dupre: And, and I want to be sure that it’s understood that a disqualification occurs when that man divulges his heart to another. If you study the minutes of the 1943 Presbytery meeting, there was a decision made that no one’s name would be mentioned for the Interim General Overseer. But as the Spirit began to move across the Presbytery and drew into focus what the Spirit wanted, it was at that time the brethren then began to divulge what they felt in their hearts. If you’re true to the, your heart, you can’t, you can’t violate your, yourself. And I don’t, I don’t want to be vague in my answer, I want to be clear in my answer because potentially there may be people here God has already been dealing with. That if you, if you take divine information and begin to use it prematurely, you, you violate the confidence that God put in you by, by divinely moving on you. And so that’s why I answer the way I did. A man’s heart cannot disqualify him, but his conduct can.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) So, basically what you’re saying is, God can deal with our hearts, but if we become like Saul, if we become big in our own sight, and start seeking the position, then we’re wrong. But God can deal with our hearts.
Dupre: Exactly. And let me, let me say this to assure you, I did not come here with it in my heart that I felt like I would be asked to be or that I desire to be chairman. It was not in my heart.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I respect Brother Dupre, but I’d like to ask a question. If he chooses not to answer it, that’s fine. Have you talked to any other people about how this meeting was going to be conducted…
Dupre: My conversation with anybody, and I will say yes I have, but only as I was questioned as to what the regulations for the assembly… When my pastors asked me what is, what is the procedure, I responded. When a Presbytery member asked me what I felt the procedures was, I responded. My response was not to, to try to, uh, as Brother A. J. Tomlinson said, wire pull anything. It was just to give my understanding of the Assembly ruling as I was questioned or asked. I can’t tell you that I have not engaged in conversations. People asked me what my thoughts were. I gave them what my thoughts were.
Lester: The other thing that I was uh, concerned about was this, you, did you know what kind of an agenda was going to be laid out this morning by the Administrative Assistant?
Dupre: What I knew about the agenda was sent to us in a letter by the Administrative Assistant.
Lester: I’ve had people call me and want to know if we was going to allow the Administrative Assistant to read the minutes of the Executive Committee. And, uh, my understanding was that it was going to be read before we ever picked a moderator. But then this morning right after he got up and made a couple statements, you stood up and come up here and he relinquished because he was submissive to the Presbytery. This was my bother, this was the thing that concerned me when this was going on this morning. And I made this statement…hear it, said that because you and I were vocal, I felt like you would, should be disqualified. And that’s, that’s the way I felt. And they know I said that here… I won’t go behind your back. I’m sorry, I skipped ahead of you.
Aviles: I know (laughter).
Lester: But, uh, I want you to understand that I believe in the theocracy of the Church. But I don’t believe we should form opinions before… M. A. Tomlinson—you weren’t here when I made this statement—M. A. Tomlinson made this to me the day that they had their meeting out at Tomlinson College. He said, “I asked the Overseers to pray not to talk because I was needing help…but,” he said, “instead they’ve had meetings…” Has there been any meetings that you know of?
Dupre: Not that I know of, but I would like to ask you a question. You seem to know much more than I do about this. You’ve just told us that you said that that was going to be read before…
Lester: I, I, I didn’t say that. I said I told a person that I thought it was.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Yes you did…you said that your understanding was that it was going to be read.
Lester: My understanding it was.
D. Smith: How did you come to that understanding?
Lester: Because I was, I heard it in the Headquarters office, that it was, that was going to be presented.
Dupre: My point, my point is just simply this—you had more information than I have. What I have was what brother, was mailed to us in a letter.
Aviles: Brother Dupre?
Dupre: Yes.
Aviles: Take your time so I can tell them.
Dupre: Yes, sir, I’m sorry (laughing). Please accept my apology.
Aviles: Go ahead.
Dupre: Um, I did not come here, my comments this morning was simply based upon my pastors concerns as to who would moderate this… It has nothing to do with this report whatsoever. As well as concerns that were called into me as chairman of the Counseling Committee from various areas. I serve as Overseer as well as chairman of the Counseling Committee and so I receive questions, (repeat for translator) I receive questions that I felt an obligation to answer. And when I came here I wanted to, to clarify that my comments of those people were correct because what I shared here was exactly what I shared with those that asked me. But this, this subject of this report was never a part of the conversation. As a matter of fact, I was not even aware of this report until I got here in Cleveland last night.
Lester: I understand what you are saying about the report. But I also know that there was some meetings going on… And this is not the time, probably, to discuss all of that but at a time in the future you and I and probably some others will have to have a talk. If the Holy Ghost put you in as a chairman, so be it.
Dupre: If there were meetings that were, were taking place, I don’t know nothing about it. I greeted Presbytery members as I came in last night, as I always greet the Presbytery. And the greeting, uh, the men that I, I seen, if I seen all of you I would’ve greeted all of you. When I was asked questions, I gave answers that I felt was consistent with the General Assembly rulings. I was not engaged in any meetings that would pre-plan any kind of a… I’ve already confessed to this Presbytery that my participation this morning was from a strong urge of the Spirit. No one prod me, pushed me, prompted me, or insisted that I do what I did. I did because I had valid concerns because what I felt was consistent with the Assembly rulings that had been conveyed out on the field that we were not going to conduct this meeting that way. I, I don’t know why you would feel that way, Brother Lester, and I certainly would like to find out why the feelings are that way, but I can say before you and God—I would not be afraid to say between you and God—that there were not any meetings whereby I decided I was going to do anything but what the Holy Ghost prompted me to do two nights ago.
Acosta: Donaldo Acosta, Honduras, El Salvador. Uh, uh, I admire the spirit in which the brother is saying with security that he’s taking responsibilities for his pastors. Brother Hernandez, who is here, he was in one of our Conventions where all the pastors told me as, uh, like the member of the Presbytery and Field Secretary you take the responsibility the way the Holy Ghost has given it to you. (Translation correction) I want to say this again. We came with great fear when we entered into this Presbytery meeting. There was a great oppression. Uh, this, note that we received from the General Office, uh, this is a very harsh note that we received. This is not allowed in The Church of God. It says in this manner, “Do you desire to continue in your, uh, your calling? Uh, are you willing to move? Uh, would you consider your age and your health, uh, to move? If by, uh, necessity there’s a change in your area, would you be, uh, williing to move?” Uh, this, uh, question is kind of harsh because we, uh, have a license and in the credential it says that we are willing to go wherever they send us. And even in other area it says, “And if you do not answer this question, uh, that, uh, tells me that you are not willing to submit.” And, uh, by rights, I mean, because we didn’t answer this, we are disqualified from being Overseers… And the sad thing about this letter is, uh, it is written after the General Overseer has retired.
Aviles: I received that note, or that letter way before Brother Pruitt retired.
Acosta: The signature is not right. I have two letters as proof that they’re not the same. And that’s not, uh, them are not the words of our General Overseer. He had a, a spirit of reconciliation. There’s a letter, uh, it treats some of us like hungry dogs. And it’s not from Brother Dupre. And I want to say this. And if there, there had not been no control of this meeting and if this, uh, meeting would have been, uh, taken charge by the Presbytery this would be the worst of errors and, uh, many of us, we would’ve taken our planes and we would’ve head back home. I told this to my brother, we have to leave. We have to do everything in accordance to the General Assembly. The General Assembly is directed by the Holy Ghost. And we cannot be a traitor to the Holy Ghost. If it hurts whoever it hurts. First of all, it’s the business of the Church and, and God. Thank you.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. Brother Lester, as part of the Presbytery, I would like to know…do what? Yeah, I would like to know, when you made the statement that you understood that the meeting was going to be opened up a certain way.
Lester: I was told the Questions & Subjects Committee met (coming to microphone). I believe there’s one of the Questions & Subjects committeeman in here today… They met…that one was on telephone, uh, by telephone conference, and they recommended that Brother Nabors open the meeting and let them pick a moderator and he would leave immediately.
D. Smith: Who, who gave the Question—go ahead, I’m sorry. Number one, the Question & Subjects Committee didn’t have the right to have that meeting and make that decision.
Lester: They always have one during BTI.
D. Smith: I said, and to make that decision.
Lester: They recommended, they didn’t make the decision—they recommended. Is that right, brother?
D. Smith: Here, here’s my question though. The agenda of the meeting is to be set by the Presbytery. No person, no committee has the right to influence the Presbytery in any way, fashion, or form.
(Amens and Applause)
Lester: They were not trying to, uh, uh, influence the committee. They were simply trying to keep order and trying to do the right thing.
D. Smith: They was not trying to influence the committee?
Lester: They were not trying to influence the Presbytery.
D. Smith: They was trying to set the agenda for the Presbytery.
Lester: No, they weren’t! The committee, they recommended, and, when I, I found out about it because I had a member call me, a minister… And I said, I don’t know, I’ll have to find out. So I asked a question of somebody who said the Committee, the Questions & Subjects Committee recommended—recommended—that Brother Nabors would read the, uh, read uh the opening and then let them pick a moderator and then he would leave.
D. Smith: (To someone else) Don’t leave.
Voice: No, I’m not.
D. Smith: I want like to state that they didn’t have the right to make that recommendation. The Presbytery is the one that was in charge of this agenda.
Lester: They may have not had the right, but they, they did have a meeting and they did recommend. They didn’t say they had the right, they recommended.
Hawkins: Brother Rob Hawkins from England. I’d like to address a comment that our Brother Acosta had made, uh, referring to a letter that he had received.
Voice: We can’t hear you, brother.
Hawkins: I’d like to, I’d like to refer to Brother Acosta’s comment concerning a letter that he has received from, from General Headquarters signed by Brother Pruitt. Uh, as far as I’ve, I understand, Brother Pruitt has sent these out in years past. I have received perhaps a few of them. And I’ve always received them in a spirit of love and that Brother Pruitt was concerned and wanted to hear my feelings. Uh, as far as I know, uh as far as I understand no other type of letters were sent out. I received them and appreciated them. I wanted to say that, uh, in behalf of uh, my feelings uh, towards what Brother Pruitt has done in the past.
Castellanos: I would just like to make a quick statement. Jose Castellanos from California. If we can, uh, refrain ourselves from applauding, okay, uh, if you want to say amen go right ahead, that would be fine. It’s just, uh, not in order. And I will let Brother Acosta, uh, after that, uh…have a question.
(Spanish dialogue)
Banuelos: Jose Banuelos from Mexico. Let’s not get out of the program… Uh, Brother Dupre came here for us to ask him questions, let us not prolong it—
Castellanos: I do want to address you right now. Uh, Jose Castellanos from California. Hermano Acosta, if I understood right, when you came the first time up here, is for us to not share statements, but ask questions. Uh, you been up here, you share a statement. And Brother Dupre is, Brother Dupre is up here to be asked questions. And that’s what we should do, and refrain ourselves from that, making statements, but rather ask questions. I believe, if we going to proceed making statements…ask questions, then we have gone out of order. Thank you.
Acosta: Donaldo Acosta, Honduras, El Salvador. Uh, we’re not out of order because of what we are discussing here. Uh, this is the, the meeting of the Presbytery and that’s not being out of order. Uh, uh, Brother Arturo Aviles also made commentary, so (he’s) out of order because... Uh, we were, when, when, somebody said hallelujah, glory to God, we were not out of order, we were in a reunion. The applauses have always gone on. We are not of the world. These are, these are not of the world. I want to explain something. When I say of this letter there is, uh, Brother Pruitt has been, uh, out of commission. Brother Juan Coronel that lives here, that Brother Pruitt, uh, was in a nursing home, or in a hospital. That’s all I wanted to say.
Dupre: In order to clarify Brother Lester’s question concerning the agenda issue, the letter said to us—and that’s what we were referencing—I will read from that letter. “The Question & Subjects Committee, (repeat for translator) the Questions & Subjects Committee believes that because the Field Secretary is to carry on the administrative duties of the Church and because of the function of the office of Administrative Assistant, this person should open the meeting, help secure a moderator, then leave the meeting for the Presbytery to conclude.” There is no language in here that deals with reading any report. This was my knowledge of what was going to happen here. Upon arriving in Cleveland last night, it became general knowledge—I didn’t go searching for that knowledge—but it became general knowledge that you also had that a report was going to be read here. That was not my understanding by the letter that was written to us. I was not engaged in a preplanning of anything. I was strictly going by what this letter advised us would happen. And when I received news that a report would be read, it was not consistent with what was already sent out to the field. And, I mean, if, if anybody wants to read this, if there is something in here that says a report was going to be read by Brother Nabors, I have missed it in this letter. But this letter states, he would open the meeting, help secure a moderator, and vacate the meeting. So the issue of the report is just something that came in after the fact and it’s certainly well within the rights of this Presbytery to be concerned about that. We were already nervous about the Question & Subjects Committee’s interference into this. And, and I’m not speaking out of order because I, I have gone to the chairman of the Question & Subjects Committee myself and after a very amicable conversation with him concerning their participation…he asked me, “You’re the chairman of the Counseling Committee, Brother Dupre. What do you think I should do about it?” And I told Brother O’Quinn that if I had to give an answer immediately, I felt the least he should do as a chairman, would to take our concerns back to the committee room and share that with the Committee, because he was uncertain at that point that they had acted according to their authority. I asked him, “Is this statement of the Questions & Subjects Committee binding on the Presbytery?” He replied to me, “It is not binding on the Presbytery.” I said, “Well, Brother O’Quinn, if this issue was to come up wherein the Presbytery would be made to feel that the evaluation of the Questions & Subject Committee would place us in a position we would have to listen to a report we had not agreed upon, would you be willing to come and say what you’ve just said to me in this meeting privately?” And his response to me was that, surely, because he didn’t believe it was binding upon the Presbytery. I don’t think it’s going to do us a whole lot of good to just keep braying on this. I, I think when we’ve been apprized of the fact that the meeting would be open and help to secure a moderator would occur—and that made us nervous—when we get to Cleveland and find out a report is going to be read, whether it made you nervous or not, it made me nervous, because it went beyond the scope of what was written to us. And so if we’re going to bring up the issue of the report, uh, we have to understand that that was not a part of the issue to begin with. It was in, uh, an addition to that which was already making us nervous.
Nainggolan: I’m Brother Nainggolan from Indonesia. I think we’re going to realize that we already, that we agreed upon the main point. We discussed this better, actually, it’s much better…select the moderator and the secretary of this Presbytery meeting. We’ve already agreed. We follow the ruling of the General Assembly. So, now the time for us to choose to obey. So suppose if you make a decision without the moderator, for me it is not valid. So, we go to the second, but the first is not make decision. So let us make the object now to select the moderator of the Presbytery meeting. So, it’s my, uh, opinion. It’s right for me or not, but in my mind, amen? So, Brother Dupre, let us go back to the, to select the moderator of the Presbytery meeting. The recording secretary we already choose. So now we…may discuss without moderator, nothing. We can make any decision, would be official. So…of this, uh, Presbytery meeting. Uh, my question is, so far, until this minute, three of you candidates of the moderator, we already agreed…none of you we selected…we decided…what in your mind, what in your heart. Suppose if all of us, one accord, want to choose you…would be agreed, one accord…how, how we all of one accord. Suppose we all one accord to choose you moderator at this hour, do you think that you are able and…you’ve got that position as a moderator? This my question to you, brother.
Dupre: I don’t think of myself any more than I think of you. As Church administrators, we should all be capable; we all should be able as well as willing if asked to serve. I do believe that I have had the privilege of being more in touch with the Assembly rulings over the years because I have had the privilege to serve as the moderator, or the chairman, of the Counseling Committee, which requires that I have some knowledge—some general knowledge—of the General Assembly rulings. But does that better qualify me than you? Not if the Holy Ghost would desire…I don’t feel that way about it. Because I feel each of you are capable of moderating a church business meeting. And my commitment to the Presbytery is this, I will work, I will work for us to do this in a way that will please the Holy Ghost whether I work as moderator or as a participant from the chair. I will use what knowledge God has helped me to gain whether I’m moderator or participant. So, I don’t feel any more qualified, I just feel that I have something to contribute. And I’m willing to contribute that as a participant and, or as a moderator… But I certainly don’t see myself as being any more qualified than anybody else.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Brother Dupre?
Voice: Come to the microphone.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. Same question I asked Brother Jernigan… Can you honestly stand here and say that I have nothing in my heart against anyone.
Dupre: I can not only stand here and say that, I can stand before God and say that. I have nothing in my heart… Brethren, I have a very sick wife and I cannot afford to displease God. Regardless if I continue my ministry or not, I cannot afford to displease God. I need a, a healing in my home. And I would not stand before you if I had anything in my heart towards anybody. I’ve had the privilege to travel across the world in many of your countries, (repeat for translator) in many of your countries. And if any of you know of any time that I have ever demonstrated a spirit other than that of wanting to be a servant of the people, I want you to report that to this Presbytery. But I can stand before you, (repeat for translator) I can stand before you, and I can stand before God, and I can tell you I have nothing in my heart. The enemy of my soul would have liked for me to have gotten things in my heart. I’m not spared from that. It takes a personal prayer life to keep things out of your heart. And we all have worked in the Church that we have been involved in situations that we could’ve gotten things in our heart. But I’m bearing my heart to you today that I would not jeopardize the healing of my wife by pulling a mask over your faces. I don’t have to be your chairman. I would be very happy to sit beside you in, in the audience. But I want you to know that I will be as strong in my defense of the Assembly rulings from the chair back there as I would from the position of moderator.
Aviles: Going once? Going twice? Gone (laughter).
Dupre: (not at microphone) I can get Brother Wilda (laughing).
(Brother Dupre vacates the building; Brother Wilda enters)
Aviles: Going once? Going twice? Gone (laughter).
Dupre: (not at microphone) I can get Brother Wilda (laughing).
(Brother Dupre vacates the building; Brother Wilda enters)
Aviles: …Jerry Wilda, for you people who have never met him. Any questions? Not all at once, please.
Wilda: Brother Estep told me to run (laughs).
Voice: I think I would run, too.
Estep: Brother Estep, Kentucky, Southern Illinois. Brother Wilda, I have asked this question to Brother Jernigan and Brother Dupre. As I respect them, I respect you as well. And my question is, what would you as moderator like to see happen or take place in this Presbytery meeting? The ultimate goal is to choose a leader for us. But as moderator, what would you like to see happen, as your ultimate goal, take place in this meeting?
Wilda: Uh, first of all, I would like to be sure that we find the mind of the Lord and the Holy Ghost. And if we don’t find the mind of the Holy Ghost, this meeting will go on for weeks and we’ll leave here in confusion. But I would like to find the mind of the Holy Ghost because He’s not confused. He knows what He would like to do. And I’m not interested at all in the arm of the flesh. I am interested in finding the mind of the Holy Ghost. And if we reach that objective, it’ll, it’ll be real simple for us to find the General Overseer.
Coronel: Juan Coronel, Overseer of Argentina and Brazil. I need to say this first. When, uh, Brother Nabors, uh, sent me a letter in respect of how the Presbytery meeting was going to operate, uh, he, uh, made the comment that he was going to install the, the, the, the moderator in this building and that he was going to leave the meeting. I have not seen Brother Nabors look for the way, a way of staying in the meeting. Uh, there was some people in the building that felt, or I felt the need for him to stay here. And I believe that we have offended Brother Nabors. He left and he was hurt. But we need to be careful in order to do things right. The question that I want to ask Brother Wilda is, uh, you have also been chosen. Uh, there’s people in here that want you to be the moderator. I want to ask you, Brother Wilda, I know that you’re a servant of the Lord and with all sincerity of heart, we want you to tell us if you’re ready to moderate this meeting. And if you feel the confirmation of the Holy Ghost in your heart.
Wilda: I don’t have a predetermined feeling except I want what the Holy Ghost wants. I would prefer that it was either of my other brothers, but if the Holy Ghost felt otherwise that’s what I want. I have no personal desires, but I do want to be submissive to the Lord. And if the Presbytery—I think if the Holy Ghost and the Presbytery would feel that I was the one, I would do my best.
Aviles: Any questions?
Grant: Mike Grant, Alaska. And I’ll ask you the same question that I asked them. Are you willing to call us to fasting and prayer when it is necessary?
Wilda: If I understand the question, am I willing to call for a fast and for prayer? Absolutely.
Neal: Carl Neal, South Carolina. Uh, same question I asked the other candidates. Um, being the moderator of this service, you’ll have, uh, certain powers you have, uh, and what I was concerned about is if you would be willing to hear both sides of a discussion without taking sides?
Wilda: I believe the question was, in the case of a discussion, would I listen to both sides before I made my determination?
Neal: (not at microphone) Brother Wilda, yes, you’d, you’d have to make a decision, but without your position and in your thoughts influencing the outcome. That whatever your stand would be, as a moderator you’d remain neutral.
Wilda: I think that would be my position.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. Brother, uh, Wilda, for my sake, have you ever made the statement that Brother Clive Jared is not Church of God and that you would like to see his license be pulled?
Wilda: I will say that Clive Jared and I have had differences of opinion, but I have never said that I would like to see his license pulled. Is that, was that the question?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Yes.
Wilda: That’s incorrect.
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky, Southern Illinois. With all due respect to this Presbytery, I’d really like to know what kind of, what those kind of questions has to do with this meeting. Again, with, others have made statements that we need to get to the order of business…rather than question each other’s integrity… We’ve been chosen as a part of the Presbytery and I really don’t understand what those kind of questions have to do with this meeting.
D. Smith: The answer to that is very simple. We’re striving to know the heart of the moderator.
Aviles: Any more questions? Going once. Going twice. Yes, sir.
Horne: I feel like we need to, uh, mention this question because it was addressed in, towards all of the other Overs-, uh, all of the other selected. And for the record, James Horne, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and West Texas. Uh, can you say, Brother Wilda, that you have no ought, or anything against any of the brethren in this room?
Wilda: I don’t have an enemy in the world. I have several people that don’t like me, but that did, cannot stop me from praying for them. And I have had, I have made the statement in numerous uh, settings, if someone was to come in and shoot me dead I don’t want them to go to hell. I don’t have an enemy in the world. And I don’t certainly have one in this Presbytery. And if they don’t like me, that’s their opinion, but I’ll still pray for them and show them love.
Aviles: Somebody else?
Wilda: (not at microphone) I think they’re getting tired now.
Aviles: Going once. Going twice. Bye-bye.
Voices: …
Voice: Are you all done with them? Can they come in?
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Are we doing to, uh, we’re still going to be discussing the three of them as to make a choice.
(Laughter; Spanish dialogue)
Coronel: Argentina, Brazil, Juan Coronel. I want you to remember that Brother Jernigan, uh, he did say that he did not want that position. I believe that you heard that. Uh, Brother Jernigan has said that he had no desire to serve, then we need to concentrate on the other two.
Aviles: I don’t believe, I don’t believe he said that he was not uh, willing to take the position. I, I believe he said that, uh, if we elected him that he would be willing to moderate. We stand corrected on that.
S. Smith: Uh, Stephen Smith, Virginia/West Virginia. My feeling is that all three of these brethren have manifested an excellent spirit, which I would expect from all of us in the Presbytery. But as I listened, Brother Dupre has the knowledge. He can almost quote the Assembly rulings and guidelines. I’m not saying the others are incapable of doing it, but it can save us getting bogged down with too many points of order and other things if we have a moderator who has all of this in his mind and can help keep us in the boundary lines… Thank you.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Is that a motion?
Voices: …
Castellanos: (not at microphone) Jose Castellanos. Wouldn’t we first open for discussion…proceed in making a motion?
S. Smith: Without the rulings in front of me, I’m not any good… If someone knows, you need to tell me. I don’t have it right here handy. I don’t know what I’ve done with, uh, the procedures. Does anyone have those there?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) There has to be a motion and a second before discussion and prayer.
Grant: Yeah, the question was, were you making a motion.
S. Smith: Okay, I’m sorry. Yeah, I think we’ve been discussing for quite some time. Uh, if it’s permissible with you, I would like to, uh, uh, see if we can get a satisfactory, uh, resolution here. And I’d like to make the motion that Brother Dupre be accepted as our moderator, (repeat for translator) I make a motion that we accept Brother Dupre as our moderator.
D. Smith: (coming to microphone) Give me a second. Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri, and I second that motion.
S. Smith: I think we would now ask if there’s any opposed?
Aviles: Is there anybody opposed?
S. Smith: Alright, we have some. I think we’re, uh, next was, am I correct in saying we ask if your willing to submit. Are you willing to submit? No. Okay, then, uh, I think we’re, uh, call ourselves to prayer. Let’s go back before the Lord, brethren.
(Prayer: 6:23pm—6:38pm)
S. Smith: At this point, we’re instructed to ask if those, if there are still those who oppose. If you would stand again. Alright, we have three. Oh, I’m sorry, we have some.
Voice: (not at microphone) I still feel the same as I did before.
Aviles: I still feel the same, too. I oppose.
S. Smith: Okay. I don’t have any suggestions on where to go from here at this moment. If someone has an idea of what we might do next I’m, I’m certainly open to that.
Grant: (not at microphone) We might withdraw this motion and see if there’s not a motion to be made…
S. Smith: Okay. Uh, I made the motion, so I will withdraw that motion at this time.
Horne: (not at microphone) Brother Smith, shouldn’t they say why they’re opposed?
S. Smith: What?
Horne: (not at microphone) Why they’re still opposed?
S. Smith: Okay, uh, Brother Horne has asked if, uh, if we should ask why the opposition. If you’d like to share, you know, what, what, if you have a reason you’d like to share why you’d be opposed to Brother Dupre.
Estep: Donald Estep, uh, Kentucky, Southern Illinois. I’d like to say I have nothing personal against anyone in here. I came into this meeting with a clear mind, a clear heart. I pledged myself unto God that I would not come into this meeting with anyone in mind for, for anything. And I can honestly say I did that. And I still feel the same way. But I feel there has been an agenda here today, and an influence that verges on political. Pressing for one cause. And we have not sought the mind of the Holy Ghost either. We’ve rallied to each other when things looked bad for… And I’m seeing the same thing happening now that happened in 1990. And I cannot accept that. I was sick for almost two years because of the kind of things that went on in that meeting. I do not understand or know why that God raised me up almost from the grave and put me back here in the Presbytery meeting at this particular time. But I know He did. And I don’t question Him for that. But I asked God the other day, “Please do not let me leave his meeting feeling like I did before.” I, I could not do that. My heart would not allow me to do that. And I, that’s why I feel the way I do. I feel like Brother Dupre is not the man for this position. Thank you.
Aviles: I also stand in opposition. Arturo Aviles from Wisconsin. I stand in opposition because I also feel that there is an agenda. It’s very prevalent and it’s very evident. And I feel like I cannot support Brother Dupre. Now, I have traveled with Brother Dupre to different countries. I’ve been to other places with him. Nothing personal against the man. And I love him. And I’m with, in agreement with Brother Wilda, I would not like to see anyone go to hell.
Castellanos: Go ahead and translate yourself.
Aviles: Anybody else want to say something?
Pimentel: God bless you, brethren. Juan Pimentel, Overseer of the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Saint Vincent. I believe, brethren, that we need to take these things and be very careful with it because this is business. This is not our business, this is the business of God. I just met Brother Dupre today because this is the first time that I’ve been here. I have nothing to say about him. I immediately, I, I, uh, received information, of the decision that he had taken, or that our General Overseer had taken. I…The Church of God in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic and I called them to prayer and fasting. And they’re praying and fasting right now, until we make our final decision here. I have not felt in my heart, I have not felt in my heart that Brother Dupre, that he could be our moderator. Brethren, we have to be very careful. That apparently, uh, there seems to be, uh, an influence, that many of our brothers that are here today, uh, not to feel ourselves—or not to find ourselves in state of… But, uh, everyone of us to feel free. That every one of us can feel the, the, the liberty of the Holy Ghost to give your opinion or to make your decision. But one thing I want to say, brethren. This is nothing political. In, in, in politics, uh, the one that wins is the one that has the most. But in the Church, it should be unanimous. If one is not in accord and if you don’t want to submit, nobody can run over you or walk over you because every member of the Church, we all have the same importance and the same responsibility and the same rights to make your own decisions. God bless you, my brothers. And may God take care of you. Uh, I believe that if we cannot come to an agreement, and those of us that are not, not in unity or we do not submit, I think it’s going to be necessary that we need to change our opinions. And that we need to return until we find the will of the Holy Ghost. God bless.
S. Smith: I, I believe I was in the process of withdrawing my motion. And, uh, I, I want to make a comment here before Brother Neal comes. Um, several times we’ve heard the suggestion that people have an agenda. As we look at each of these brethren that come forward, maybe somebody here has an agenda to put them in. I don’t know. But I don’t, I would not accuse any of those three. I want to look at each person for their own character. And, and see if the Spirit of the Lord would direct us to that person and feel that he would do a good job of moderating. But if you feel strongly that someone has an agenda, rather than make vague statements, it would be good to go to one another and, and tell that person, “I, I’ve felt like you’ve predetermined something and you’re trying to accomplish that.” And let’s ask forgiveness of each other. And let’s pray to God until God heals that. Until the only agenda we have is what all three of these men have said, to find the mind of God. So I would just request that, that we not make those kind of statements publicly anymore. But if you sense that, go to those brothers. If you think I’m in that spirit, please come to me. I want to make it right. I don’t want to be out of line with anything I say and do. And I don’t want the motives of my heart to be impure. And even though I, I disagree with some of your opinions on certain things, I would not suggest that your heart is impure or that you’ve got a bad motive. I think we’re all here to do God’s business and try to find His will. And let’s love each other on the journey to get to where we’re going. I know it’s a slow process. We all wish it could just happen and be over. And at some point in this it will. But let’s love one another and speak well of one other another as we make our journey here, to the best of our ability, let’s please do that.
Neal: Brother Neal, South Carolina. I, I, I dislike uh, some of the things I’m hearing, brethren. These vague, pointed words to bring doubt on somebody’s, uh, integrity. I love all three of these brethren and I’ve sat with them in BTI. Any of them is worthy. But only God can give us the man He wants to have in there. I didn’t come with an agenda. Because I was worried, but God kept on telling me He’s in control of this thing and if I would humble myself before Him, He would pick out the right man. And so I think we need to keep ourself focused on what we’re doing, one step at a time. And if you, you want to charge somebody, say it outright because if it’s just rumors they shouldn’t be brought in. Prove your statements, brother, because we’re going to be held accountable for everything we say. We’ve got to get on with this program and, and allow the Spirit to work…
Aviles: Arturo Aviles, Wisconsin. It’s very easy for us to stand up here and say that we throw off vague, (repeat for translation) it’s very easy to say that we can stand up here and throw vague words, uh, but when the shoe is on the other side, that is right, when, when, the shoe is on the other foot, it’s okay to throw off these words, these vague words. There has been some questions here, uh, that has been asked that has brought questions about the integrity of some men that were up here. But then again in the next breath we turn right around and say, I love you, brother. That’s not the spirit of God. If I say, “I love you, Brother Smith,” and I, and I tell you that, brother, to your face that I love you, and then I turn around and I begin to backbite you and stab you in the back, I’m a hypocrite and my heart is not clean before God because I’m a liar and I’m a hypocrite. God has given every single one of us the spirit of the discernment, but some of us have the spirit of an ostrich because of our heads being under, under sand and we don’t want to see what is going on in The Church of God. We need to get our heads from underneath the sand and begin to look for the will of God—and we’re not going to find it, brother, with our heads in the sand. Hermono Acosta, I love you. I, I, I respect you. I appreciate everything that you’re doing for The Church of God. And I have gone to your country. And I’ve seen the work that you’ve done. And I’ve seen the work that these brethren have done in their countries and I love them and I respect them for that. Because I know the sacrifices that have, they have to make in countries that where they live in, brother, they don’t make what we make. The problem is, Brother Forbes, where are you? It’s an American problem, friend. We have too much time on our hands. We have too much finances and we’re fighting for more finances. We’re fighting for positions that God hasn’t called us, but we’re still seeking for them positions and God is not pleased! God has, God has disqualified us from them positions because of our haughty attitude! God bless you.
Cannon: We were asked if we had, uh. My name is H.L. Cannon, Overseer of Indiana and Ohio. We were asked to give a reason why. The reason I have is because I’ve prayed, I’ve fasted and I’ve sought God. And I’m convinced that the Holy Ghost will give us the man that we need. We talk about time, and we’ve got to hurry. No, God’s got time. We are inconvenienced with our time. It’s better to take a month to get a moderator that God has than it is for us to rush in and get a moderator on our part and mess up the whole Church of God. Until God, through the Holy Ghost, pricks my heart and tells me that’s the man…comes up here. I have not one ill will in my heart against one living soul. I mean that from the depths of my heart. And God knows that from the depths of my heart. And these brothers, if I tell you I love them, I love them. I may not fully agree with everything they say and do. But I love every one of you in here as well as Brother Dupre, Brother Wilda and Brother Jernigan. But we forgetting one thing. God may have a David out there somewhere that ain’t been brought forward yet! And we need to get a hold of God, that His will be done! God just told us it’s not His will for some of these to be in office and we keep insisting that they are! Don’t you think God would prick our heart and tell us? When our lives…God will tell us who he is! He always works that way and He always will! And I’m not speaking as a novice either. I’m speaking as one that’s been in this program a long time. One that’s seen God come down and made the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear. Gentlemen, we’re serving a God who’s alive and well and real! And He is able and well able! And if we’ve got anything in our heart and we’ve already made up our mind and we’ve predestinated ourselves to what we want God to do and who we want, brother, we’d better get right with God or we’re going to lose our souls over this thing! I’m here today as honest as I know how to be! I’m not seeking no position, I never have sought a position! I never asked to be a pastor or a minister or an Overseer or nothing else and I’m still not asking for it! I’m trying to be in the will of God. When they appointed me, I was afraid to be disobedient to them over me in the Lord ‘cause I preferred you, not me. I still feel that way today and God hadn’t changed my mind. I feel like Paul said, I feel like I’m the least among you. But I’ve been around. But I find what Paul also said in the book of Corinthians to the Church at Corinth. He said that he felt that contention that was among them and he said, I partly believe it. But God, they may be some division going on in here. You know it. I know it. Don’t be kidding ourselves and lie to ourself—the worst thing in the world, to lie to is yourself. But this life and everything we do in this Presbytery meeting will go down on record to the whole wide world and it’ll go on the great record upstairs! And we’ll stand before God and give an account of that that we do! And if we…because we like somebody and we believe somebody would do this or that better than somebody else, we’re in the wrong spirit and the wrong frame of mind! Because God already knows who it is! God will set him in, brother. You let God have His way. And if I’ve offended any of you, please forgive me. I don’t mean to offend. I have no desire in my heart to offend anyone. And I’ll promise you I don’t have nothing in my heart against a soul in this world. And these brothers, I love them and they’ve been so close to me and they’ve been a blessing to me—every one of them has. It’s not that I’m against them. I put God above friend and everybody else. That’s who I’m for is God and The Church of God. I love Him with all my heart.
Coronel: Juan Coronel, Overseer of Argentina and Brazil. To be honest or true, I don’t feel right by the words that were shared by Brother Aviles, to say, to say that there is a, this group that is influence and that has not the, the Spirit of God. If the Spirit of God is not…then the spirit of satan…is among us over the flesh. And I tell you with all sincerity, I don’t know how long we’re going to stay here. Any if I’m going to feel offended, I, I, I choose to withdraw. The words are very strong. I, don’t have the right to express what I feel? Then, then, then why am I being treated like I’m a son of the devil. If Brother Aviles is saying that I don’t have the Holy Ghost, then what do I have? I don’t have anything against each one.
Aviles: Hermano Coronel.
Coronel: I’m going to finish this—give me a second. Uh, I ask us to be careful the way that we express to each other. The Bible says not to give any, any way to the enemy. Let’s be careful. It is very serious…what we dealing with. All of us, uh, love The Church of God. And if brothers knows if I’ve gathered with someone and tried influence and to push my own agenda, no, uh, no, no way have I done that. And, and I have as much fears as each one of us in here to be wrong. I fear the Lord. I do not wish to offend anyone, the Lord and His body. I know I appreciate Brother…but I do not like if he continues with that expression. That’s what I understand that it’s not the Spirit of God. Somebody did not come and told me. Nobody influence me. I’m not a mere child. And back, in the presbytery meeting of1990, I was there and they try to influence me. I could tell you who it was. I did not vote. I said, you did not teach me to vote. And you have instruct me to fast and pray and seek the Lord’s will. And after that I only received persecution from the Church. Yes, brethren. And I slept on the floor in Arizona to defend the truth. They took away my bed, where I sleep, in Arizona. Because I was not in accordance with the change that have to take place with the doctrinal. And it hurts me to hear what I heard from Brother Aviles. And I believe…he was nervous. But not everyone here would understand the way Aviles said. We have to be humble. We have gone through a lot of stuff for The Church of God, each one of us in here. We have suffered. And maybe we’ll continue suffering. Let’s demonstrate an honest love. You know, there’s different kind of love. Sincere brother, I feel a little awkward. I do not want to be called a son of the devil or of the world. We should not touch the anointed ones of the Lord. Each one of us here has been anointed. The Word says do not touch my anointed. And do not make any mark. Not with word or any other thing. In everything… Let’s continue on with the humble spirit seeking the Lord’s Spirit, but let’s not offend one another. I know I’m still a human being. I want to tell the brother I love you and I don’t have anything against you.
Aviles: Brother Coronel. Arturo Aviles, Overseer of Wisconsin. Brother Coronel, if any time that you hear that I call upon your name…
(Spanish dialogue)
Aviles: At no moment did I call the name, but I do want to ask your forgiveness if I offended you. (Spanish dialog) Many have taken upon this place and make the same comments and no one else names gets offended. I didn’t mention any names. I retract my words. As I stated before, I love you…I ask your forgiveness… Alright, brother, I ask for your forgiveness.
Castellanos: They forgive each other.
Forbes: Thank you. George C. Forbes, Bahamas, Turks & Caicos. Brethrens, I’ve been sitting back and listening. But one thing we must understand here today. That God has already done half of his job by giving us the opportunity only to appoint our Interim General Overseer. He, Himself, removed the former General Overseer. We cannot blame the Administrative Committee, neither can we blame the Presbytery. So our job is to do the last part. In the book of Isaiah, chapter 6, verse 1, it says that, “In the day that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord.” Now, I would say here this evening, just like Isaiah saw God and by seeing God, he was brought out of arms of the flesh. I believe we need to see God. And I also believe that we have been too much talking and we need to do some kneeology.
Voices: Prayer (laughter).
Forbes: We need to go down to prayer and that is going to be the only way we are going to come to conclusion on what we about to do here today. And I would strongly suggest that we cease this talking and let’s get down to prayer. You see, I love The Church of God. And I always brag about The Church of God because we believe in the Spirit. And all I’m seeing here today is hanging too much in the flesh. Because just like there are all these thousands of people is praying today in other countries to help us out in what we are doing here, we are not praying enough. And I would strongly make a suggestion, that whatever we were doing, let us bring this part of this meeting to a close with a prayer and come, come here tomorrow morning and let’s have a prayer service. And let’s get down to business. And then we’ll try, God will give us the…to whatever…seeking for. Amen? Thank you very much.
Thomas: I am Isaac Thomas, Overseer of South India. I was just watching what is going on here. Uh, I have, uh, I have a…everybody’s…qualified to be moderator or…we have selected three persons…we just here just, uh, to select an Interim Overseer. For selecting that Overseer, we have selecting, uh, just a moderator, for the process is…up to the process is over. I don’t think that we are going to select a moderator forever. So the main thing we…to select an Interim Overseer for that purpose we need to select, select a moderator for a short time—I think that maybe one or two or three days. For that purpose we select the three persons that are here…many, many motions came over here, I mean, uh, one we selected, how many opposing, how many saying yes and all that…why can’t we select a person just for one or two, two or three days? …why we making big debate over that because we have came here to select an Overseer. And we have three persons over here. And uh, uh many of our brother have put one of our brothers, anyone opposing, and three of them opposing. And they oppose the one, and they ask the reason they opposing. I just notice many of them spoke over here they came here with clear mind. And they say while they opposing them…I didn’t understand what the reason they were opposing. Well, I’m working in the court of law…in the chamber we ask what is the story behind… What is the story behind it, the…You see…I’m innocent, I don’t know nothing, I don’t know nothing…push him more and more…we get all of the story of him. Many brothers saying, “My mind is clear, my mind is clear. I came here clear,” why are you opposed…for a moderator for just one, or two, or three days…Maybe I’m wrong but I understand that…only those from United States or surrounding areas only doing or…making such comments. Thank God for us because we people are far away from here and we don’t know what’s going on here…I spoke to many people that’s here. Everyone have their own story…everybody have their own stories…I don’t know what is that. So my suggestion is that. We just came here to select an Interim Overseer, for that purpose we are going to select a moderator for three days or whatever it may be…for me everybody are good for moderator…for my view everyone is fine and good and I’m not opposing anybody…the main story is not with the moderator…he’s just in office for a few, just some time to select a person…I think that let anybody can come…Brother Dupre, or Brother Jernigan…or other Brother, the other brother…anybody can come. So, I think that when we are speaking about that, it doesn’t matter for the moderator, we need to select an overseer…when some speaking over here, I think they have some story in their mind but they saying they have clear mind…I’m not sure about that. So I am saying, let anybody can come…for anybody…for me…anybody under one condition that the Holy Ghost has selected him. Main job is selecting the interim overseer…so my request is that if you are talking like that…for one…opposed to someone else…I don’t think we can finish…my understanding…anybody can come and moderate. I feel moderator cannot decide who the overseer…he just person to control the procedure, that’s what I see about moderator. He’s not going to select an overseer…important thing that we need prayers…sure there is lack of prayer here…again I am saying that is my feeling I do not know about you. If any mistake come with me, sorry for that…I’m ready to apologize for that…praying to select moderator…I, I believe we accept anybody…thank you very much for this first time you permitted for me…thank you so much.
S. Smith: I think he was, I think, uh, Stephen Smith, Virginia/West Virginia. I think Brother, it was Brother Forbes that suggested a minute ago that we, uh, go get rest and come back in the morning.
Castellanos: That’s, uh, that was Brother, Bishop Forbes, yes.
Smith: Brother Leighty just told me he’s going to leave whether any of us do… (laughs).
Leighty: (not at microphone) I’m going back to my hotel room, I just want to know what time we’re staring in the morning.
Castellanos: We start back at 9:00, too?
Leighty: (not at microphone) 9:00?
S. Smith: Let me ask a question first. Uh, we have these three brethren hanging in the balance. Do we want to start with the same three tomorrow or, or do we want to dismiss these recommendations and start with a clean slate tomorrow? Did someone make a suggestion? Uh, he, he’s just ahead of you, Brother Acosta.
Nsofwa: My suggestion is that, um, um, it’s best that, it, it would be better to, we, we all go, uh, back then tomorrow, uh, we be able to decide whether we start where we left or we start, uh, fresh. Because at the moment, uh, the emotions are running up and down. That’s my suggestion.
S. Smith: I, I’m not sure what he addressed. Just, just dismissing?
Castellanos: Uh, uh, I believe he just, just to dismiss and tomorrow we can start fresh, just, he says that he feels emotional running high.
S. Smith: So, uh, but do we want to dismiss these brethren from recommendation and start over tomorrow, or are we going to come back and continue with these same three? That’s my question. I’m, I’m sorry, Brother Acosta…
(Spanish dialogue)
Nsofwa: I, I, I said that, uh, um, I made a suggestion that we cannot come to a conclusion now whether we begin fresh…three brethren elected. I said, because our emotions are too high. Tomorrow when we come back in the morning we can decide whether can begin with the same nominations or we can, um, change the nomination.
S. Smith: Thank you. Thank you for correcting me. Okay, we, we, we have a second then to do that?
Voice: (not at microphone) It was a suggestion, not a motion.
Castellanos: It was a suggestion, brother, it was not a motion.
S. Smith: Okay, I apologize. I, I thought it was a, a motion being made.
Castellanos: It was a suggestion.
Voice: (not at microphone) It was a suggestion.
Estep: (not at microphone) Can I speak for one of the three brethren? Can I speak for one of the three brethren?
Grant: (not at microphone) Can you come to the microphone, please…
Estep: …
S. Smith: I know, but we won’t get a recording without it.
Estep: Uh, I, I don’t mean to get ahead of you, but since it’s about the three brothers, why can we not sleep on it? Pray on it? And I believe Bishop Forbes suggested we pray and then leave, not leave, is that right, Brother Forbes? Prayer and I just want to remind us of that. And one of the three amigos, or whatever (laughing), uh, can we sleep and pray on it tonight and then we’ll start fresh in the morning?
S. Smith: So, so you’re saying leave it as it is and tomorrow morning we’ll decide whether to go with these three.
Estep: Donald Estep, it’s still me, Kentucky, Southern Illinois. That’s just my feeling.
S. Smith: Would every be, everyone be satisfied that we just stop where we are? Start tomorrow morning at this exact place? And tomorrow when we’re fresh we could decide whether we want to continue with these three or make new recommendations.
Acosta: I, uh, have said that recommendation. Uh, I, I do want to share just a few feelings…of us going around. And whether we want to accept it or not, there is an influence going around. The fact that I’m, I’m, I’m against someone is because, is a fact that I might have something against that person. You might say I have nothing against him, but then again you have, you be, you oppose him. If, if, if tomorrow we come praying but we already have kind of made up our minds and, uh, we have already made up our minds…to not submit, and, uh, once again that’s where our heart has, uh…and it would not help us even if we fast. It’s, it’s, it’s in vain, it might be I’m not in accordance with the brethren because we have different characters, we might even talk bad about my fellow brethren…well known that from Headquarters that’s been put out some information that is not real. And what I have done, is I have saved those letters. I have put them aside. And I have come as a member of The Church of God, uh, and, and, asking for the best for The Church of God. And I’ve clear my mind. If they were to ask me to submit unto Brother Jerry Wilda, I would do it. I would to that as well, the same with Brother Jernigan. He can, he can moderate this, uh, this meeting. But sometimes that we have a very…made up our mind against specific individuals. And it might be my closest, dearest friend to me. I would make sure, uh, they’re information they given to me, is to test it and see if it’s true or not true. If the brothers have not sinned, they are ready to be the moderator. I would give this recommendation to myself (Spanish clarification), just like, uh, just like I’m go ahead and take a shower, I also have to take a shower within myself to know, to seek what is wrong within myself. I will ask with all my heart to you, to stop a, a, a mind, if you made up your minds against certain individuals. Because, you know, we are talking a little bit too harsh to each other. And that would not take us to any other place than being frustrated. Let’s, let’s pray and seek the Lord, and He will do a, a, a wonderful work when we open up our hearts. And we have said, uh, that, that fellow brother that we can get along with God bless you. Thank you, brethren.
S. Smith: Are we ready to dismiss, or does somebody have something you need to say?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Just verify what we’re doing in the morning.
S. Smith: Okay uh. As I understand it, we have agreed to dismiss with things just as they are. When we begin tomorrow, we will decide then if we want to continue to consider these same three men or if we want to make new recommendations. That’s my understanding of what we agreed to.
Voice: (not at microphone) 9:00am?
S. Smith: 9:00am. Brother Lester said you need to know, go ahead.
Lester: I need to know, do all of the foreign Overseers have a ride to their motel?
Castellanos: If you don’t have a ride, please raise your hand, all of the National Overseers, overseas.
Lester: Alright uh. Make sure, then, that you make arrangements to catch a ride back in the morning with whoever you ride over there with tonight. Because we don’t want to miss anyone. Thank you.
S. Smith: I’ll read a scripture, and we will, uh, have this final prayer together.
Castellanos: Brother, I should say something real quick.
S. Smith: I’m sorry.
Castellanos: Uh, Brother, Brother Wilda, I just want to say that, uh, Brother Jose Castellanos, from California/Nevada. I just want to say that, uh, that I, I believe we heading the right direction. It’s a little rough stuff today, but I believe we all want to do the God’s will. And I, I, I agree with Brother Acosta. I mean, things that we agree upon…that we are in accordance with. Uh, but let’s go, let’s go to our, to our homes, our or motels, our hotels. And let’s seek God. Let’s seek God. I truly desire to do God’s will. I believe there’s a feeling on each one of us in here to do God’s will, so we have to put ourself aside. We have to put ourself aside. And Brother Acosta, I will take a shower. I just, with tears and with grief. You know, I do want to leave this room with a good conscience. I don’t have nothing against no fellow brethrens…first time I have met them so I have not made up my mind about you. It’s wise of a man to hear both sides of the story… I have learned that the hard way, believe me, in my secular, in my secular life. And I just want to say I that I truly desire men that we would go to prayer. We have said we have been praying for months. Let’s not stop now. God bless you brothers.
Neal: Brother Neal from South Carolina. Uh, brethren since we’re going to dismiss right now and re-adjourn at 9:00 in the morning, how do you feel about us grabbing our cell phones and calling everybody back home and telling them everything that went on?
Castellanos: What was that again?
Neal: Should we talk about this meeting and everything that has taken place here today so far, make it known and broadcast it, or should we keep it within the confounds, uh, of the Presbytery.
Castellanos: Uh, brother let me translate it into Spanish.
Neal: Uh, the only reason I wanted to say that is because the people on the outside may not have felt the love, even though we’ve had some disagreements already. And even though the truth would be told, it could be perceived different from the outside. I’m, for one, I don’t mind talking with any of the Overseers—with and of the Presbytery—about what we’ve discussed at dinner or walking around the hallways or whatever. But I won’t even talk to my wife about our meeting here today.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) If that be the case, we’re saying that nobody outside this Presbytery is going to know what’s going on.
(Amens)
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Nobody. Nobody but Presbytery.
S. Smith: Not, not just cell phones, but you mean in private conversations in all as well?
D. Smith: We’re talking about any individual outside of the Presbytery.
(Amens)
S. Smith: Alright. I’m not in despair. I hope you’re not in despair. Uh, not discouraged. We have accomplished something today. We have a clerk (laughter). And the love we have for the Lord and one another is going to break through the barriers that we feel, and we’re going to make it. “Search me, O God, and know my heart.” Let me say that again. “Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me to the way everlasting.” Let’s have that kind of a spirit in our prayer and I believe the Lord will get us in condition, we’ll have energy and go forth. Let’s have a good prayer.
Castellanos: Let us go to prayer together brethren, and be dismissed.
(Prayer)
Adjourned at 7:45pm
(Prayer was requested by Brother Jernigan to start the meeting; concluded at 9:21am)
S. Smith: I wonder if we could sing a few songs and worship our Savior today, a couple of songs that probably everybody would know like, uh, “Oh, How I Love Jesus,” and, “I Have Decided.” Would that be alright to do that? I can’t sing (laughs). Uh, someone who—you can sing, you can, would you come lead is in, uh, “Oh, How I Love Jesus,” Brother Aviles? Hallelujah.
(Brother Aviles led the Presbytery in singing, “Oh, How I Love Jesus;” the Presbytery worshipped the Lord, then Brother Aviles led “Victory in Jesus;” more worship)
(Brother Aviles led the Presbytery in singing, “Oh, How I Love Jesus;” the Presbytery worshipped the Lord, then Brother Aviles led “Victory in Jesus;” more worship)
Aviles: Would I be out of order if I were to ask one of the brethren from Brother Luna to come up and lead one in Spanish?
S. Smith: Oh, no.
Aviles: Brother Luna.
Luna: Uh, we’re going to sing a hymn, uh, entitled “How Great Thou Art.” We’re going to do it for the Lord.
(Brother Luna led the Presbytery in “How Great Thou Art” in Spanish, more worship)
S. Smith: I think it would be good to bring the Word of God into our hearts now. Psalms 133. This is a short Psalm. I’ll read it all in English and then I’ll let our brother read it all in Spanish. “Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.”
(Read in Spanish by Brother Coronel)
S. Smith: Could we just take a minute and lift our hands and surrender to the Lord?
(Worship)
S. Smith: I don’t think we need to be in a hurry, brethren. Hallelujah. This, for we need right here. Worship our Savior and Lord. Surrender our hearts to Him a little while.
(Worship; Aviles led “How Great Thou Art” in Spanish again; more worship)
S. Smith: Brethren, I’m not wanting to dominate this microphone. It is open to anyone who desires to speak at any time. Yes, Brother Coronel?
Coronel: God bless you, brethren. Juan Coronel, Overseer of Argentina and Brazil. Uh, when we left this place yesterday I, uh, noted some biblical advices, that we look to the multitude of counselors. Yesterday there was not a submission to the multitude of counselors that was here. And, uh, in the 5th chapter of the book of Acts, verse 29, there was a situation and the, the, there was a situation in the counsel. Uh, the apostles were brought to be uh, uh, examined not to obey, uh, not to preach in the name of Jesus. But, uh, Peter (Spanish clarification) said that it was necessary, it was better for us to obey God than man. There was a man named Gamaliel that gave, uh, advice to the counsel. They all had, uh, had it in their mind that, uh, for them not to preach in the name of Jesus. Gamaliel tells, uh, the counsel, uh, for them to be very careful because they would find themselves, uh, they would be, they would find themselves resisting God. I believe that’s very important. I believe there’s a lot of intelligent people here with a lot of wisdom. And I say this because I fear, uh, that if we return back, I fear that, uh, we might revert and the same people will, will, will not be in accordance with what we’re trying to do here. Uh, they would, uh, harden their hearts because of the position that they have. I’m ready to, uh, go back, uh, that we go back and, and seek another person. But we need to be very careful. Because yesterday we saw the multitude of counselors. Uh, there was a very firm decision not to submit ourselves to the multitude of counselors. I believe that the scriptures, uh, guide us and tell us. I believe that every one of us here wants to do the best for God and His Church. God bless you.
Grant: I’d like to just make, uh, an announcement or two, I guess. If you have something to say, please come to the microphone. And you don’t need to say where you’re from, I think now everybody knows where you’re from. So just identify yourself. And I, uh, I’d also like to say that I’m thankful that it was said yesterday that we shouldn’t share this with others, what goes on here. When I called, as I had promised a couple of people who were very interested in what was going on, and told them that we would not be sharing what went on in here, I could feel a peace that came over them. And I believe that that’s what we need. And we must have the peace of God. The field needs to know that as leaders that we’re willing to get a hold of God and do whatever it takes to get God’s will. And then we can go in peace and, by the grace of God, be able to gain the victory over whatever division or strife that the enemy might want to put upon us.
Acosta: God bless you, brethren. It’s a tremendous blessing we have received this morning. I have been meditating, uh, a lot. Uh, with the situation that we’re facing I’ve been doing a lot of meditating. The only One that’s going to help us is the Holy Ghost, He’s the only One who can, uh, lower us to the position that we need to be. I do not want to overlook what’s in the Bible. I want to read this very carefully… Uh, this is, this is a, uh, warning to the bishops. Uh, and, and the scripture tells us that the bishop must rule well his home and have his family under subjection, with all honesty. In verse 6, “But not be a novice that he not fall into the hands of the devil.” Uh, we can, uh, meditate on the second, uh, letter of, of Paul. The word novice, it is not in ignorance, uh, it means, uh, someone that has just been, uh, placed. It’s like if you take, uh, a brand new plant and you plant it somewhere else and it’ll, it’ll give fruit. And I want to tell you this. Let’s be very careful. Us as being new in position, uh, be careful that we not judge a man with, uh, more wisdom than us. A, a man that could probably be our great-grandfather. I want to respect Brother Wilda, Brother Jernigan, and Brother Dupre, because these are men who have been in the Church for many years. I have asked, uh, my brethren, my Hispanic brethren that we have, in front of us bishops, because there are those that are anointed of the Lord and I like what someone said here last night, or yesterday, that we need to respect those that are anointed of the Lord. Paul says that. These brethren are not here to impress, they’re not here to gain popularity. And we need to be very careful that we do not, uh, overlook who they are and, and judge them in, in, in a wrong way. Uh, last night as we were praying, uh, brother, with Brother Caleb, what I asked the Lord yesterday was, we, I was praying as I was I was ready, getting ready to go to bed, I was asking the Lord to help me that we not, uh, push ourselves or, or, of try to usurp authority over those that have more authority over those that have more wisdom than we do. I have a question in my heart, but, uh, I don’t, I don’t want to be the one to say it. I don’t know if you have this, uh, experience in a local church. When there is a conference and if a member does not submit, I just leave that question in the air.
Wilda: I guess you know who I am (laughs). Uh, I am very concerned and I would like to make an appeal to us as the Presbytery. One of the greatest messages I ever heard was preached the last year it was in the old Assembly tabernacle on Central Avenue. I think that we have very sincere men here, and you’re sincere in your beliefs. But in that message an illustration was used about two that were trying to move a refrigerator. And after they sweated and they grunted and they groaned, the one said to the other, “Do you think we’ll ever get it out?” And the other said, “I thought we was trying to get it in.” Yesterday I, I really believe that we grieved the Holy Ghost. Here we are in the second day and we still don’t have a moderator. There’s, there’s division amongst us. And I would like to site a scripture. In the 5th chapter of John, there was a man that laid by the pool that had an infirmity for 38 years. And this pool was named Bethesda, uh, which being interpreted is a house of mercy. (Repeat for translator) A house of mercy. At the time this scripture was written, that pool was still there. But something happened one day. Jesus came by, who’s the living house of mercy, and He asked a question, “Wilt thou be made whole?” And the man began to make all kinds of excuses. But the question was, Wilt thou be made whole? And Jesus healed the man. And from that time on, Bethesda lost its power. Now, we’re going to have to find the mind of the Holy Ghost, as, in the Presbytery. Now, this is not a, like, Jerry Wilda campaign. Or like, Hermano Aviles campaign. This is to find the will of God. And I can tell you that if we miss God, there’s not a one of us going to remain the same. I, I’m concerned about the distrust that we have for those over us in the Lord. But the Bible says that we are to obey them that have the rule over us and submit yourselves. I say that submission is our problem. I’m very concerned. Brother Dupre and uh Brother Jernigan, we sat out there a long time. Until we can make up our mind, and figure out if we want to move this thing in or move it out, we’ll be here for months. And if we make the decision, we’re going to miss it. But if we find the mind of the Holy Ghost, He can do it today. And if we miss the Holy Ghost, we’re just going to spend a lot of time and still not have the right decision. And I’m concerned about this because, uh, I just have concerns with what was said and done yesterday. But more than one that, that questioned the Administrative Assistant to the General Overseer…stated in this meeting that, by different ones, that they had no problems with Brother Nabors. But still we have some that think that Brother Nabors has not told the truth. We’ve got to find the mind of the Lord because we’re not going to remain the same. If we find the mind of the Lord, we’re going to take this stumbling block and turn it into a great stepping stone. And, and if we miss the Lord, we’re headed for trouble. I feel that all of us here want to see the Church go on. But we’re going to have to learn how to submit to those over us in the Lord, and to the Holy Ghost.
Dupre: Ray Dupre. Perhaps I have a very simplistic mind. What I am going to say, I, I don’t mean it to be a challenge. But when we speak, as Brother Acosta has said, es-, especially those with years of experience, and we expect people to listen to us, we have to be careful what we say. I am of a different opinion than Brother Wilda. I don’t believe we’ve grieved the Holy Ghost. And I would, I’m not challenging him, but I would love to have dialog. To make a blanket statement that we are bogged down because we have grieved the Spirit without telling us how we’ve grieved the Spirit is not fair to us. I’m not here to defend my reputation. I’m not here to defend, uh, Bishop Nabors’ reputation. Our reputation will stand on our conduct. But I don’t believe we grieved the Holy Ghost by expecting this body of men to operate according to the General Assembly rulings. I have felt a, a deep river of the Spirit moving among us. We are doing serious business for The Church of God. And to cast out general statements that sound to be a rebuke to us is unfair. I’m not here to make friends. I’m not here to make enemies. I’m here to do business for The Church of God. I love every one of you. And when I said yesterday that I have nothing in my heart against anyone, that includes Bishop Nabors. While I can have a pure heart before everybody, I can also be of the opinion that I don’t agree with what you do or how you conduct yourself. I, I’m willing to be an open book here today. If there is a fault, I will confess it. I will repent it. I will make restitution. I will do whatever it takes to be right before the Lord. I have a lot at stake here. I am expecting God to do big things for my wife. But I think where grief comes in is when we emotionally express ourselves and bear that upon us as though it be true. The simplicity of the matter is this, we either have grieved the Spirit, or we have not grieved the Spirit. I appreciate Brother Wilda’s opinion that we have grieved the Spirit. But I would like an appreciation of my opinion that we have not grieved the Spirit. We have not injured our Administrative Assistant. If that is the feeling of some and you can tell us why we have done that and, and that is borne to be true, I’ll be the first to lead the confession. Brethren, my comments here yesterday was solely based upon a desire to see us operate within the confines of the General Assembly. And I feel I have a right to base my opinion as much as Bish-, Bishop Wilda has a right to base his opinion. This just creates division for us when we contend this way. We can lay these issues aside and let the Spirit help us. There is a burr under our saddle, but I have learned over the years that when I’m looking for a burr under my saddle, I look for a common denominator. And when I find that common denominator, I’ve found the burr. I refuse to let this Presbytery be ambushed by any other spirit that will not please the Holy Ghost. This is where we contend, brethren. This is where the Church work gets done. And it’s not against the Bible to contend one against the other in this Presbytery Meeting. I know I’m making some very bold and brave statements here, but I, too, have been grieved by the frivolous accusations that have come across by, by, by comments that have been made. And if we’re willing now to open up so that we can get this garbage out of our garbage cans, then and only then will we find the mind of God. But I am contending here today that we have not grieved the Spirit by contending for the position of holding us to operating according to the General Assembly mandates.
Aviles: You got your Bible, brother?
Lester: Ralph Lester. I appreciate Brother Dupre’s comments, Brother Wilda’s comments. There’s probably some things that should come out, that maybe it should be between the individuals. I, for one, I want to see the Holy Ghost… But what’s going on here, we was here from 9:00 yesterday morning, except for one and a half hour uh, break for lunch, and we left here at 8:00 last night and we simply accomplished nothing. Now, why did we not accomplish anything? And I’m going to say this with the love. That there was no doubt that some who come here had a preconceived idea of what was going to be done. I don’t know who God’s going to put up here as a moderator and I don’t know who God’s going to make the General Overseer. But I do have some differences with some. And I’ve talked to one today and we’re going to have a meeting. Because I definitely feel that if they would have allowed him, before he, before we ever got into the Presbytery meeting—and we’re still not, what I call, in the Presbytery because we don’t have a moderator. But if they’d allowed that man to give his comments, he could’ve clarified some things that’s now in the minds of some of you, what’s going on… I wonder how many of you would’ve liked to have been treated like he was treated. You wouldn’t like it. Now, I went through this in ’91 and in ’92 with the former organization. I was called a liar and I proved them wrong. And I done my best to stay within the bounds of the Church of God of Prophecy until God said that was enough. Now, for, I, for one, feel that we need to get everything aired out of the way and get a moderator and get down to the business of selecting a General Overseer who the Holy Ghost wants, not what we want. Going back to ’43, the statement was made, If we let the Holy Ghost pick the man, we’ll have no trouble in the General Assembly…that was said. And what happened? The Holy Ghost said, Bring forth the younger son. And he was approved unanimously in the General Assembly. But the Holy Ghost did the work. I don’t have the right to say who should be the General Overseer, I don’t have the right to do that. And there’s not a one of us here today that know what God has… And if you do, I’d like to talk to you. God bless you.
Dupre: Ray Dupre. I disagree with Bishop Lester. We have began the meeting. We have made progress. It’s such comments that was made by him just in this setting, that has bred some of the discontent. Brethren, we’re not contending for my reputation. We’re not contending for Bishop Nabors’ reputation. Bishop Nabors was not mistreated here yesterday. And to, and to say that to us like we’re children and expect us to believe it is unfair. We can make the issue Bishop Nabors if we want to. And again, my mind is a simplistic mind. The issue is not Bishop Nabors. The issue is not respect or disrespect for Bishop Nabors. The issue is respect for the General Assembly rulings. I’ve worked in the Church for a lot of years. I would not put my local church through nearly two hours of contending over my reputation. I would’ve walked up to the mike as a gentleman and removed myself as a source of contention. And I, I, I’m ready to do what’s right here. And this business of just throwing out statements to make us feel condemned is wrong. If I wrong you, or if I wrong Bishop Nabors, I will be man enough to come to you or Bishop Nabors one on one. I will tell you my feelings of Bishop Nabors has been aired to him on three different conversations privately in his office. We are not enemies. I don’t feel that he’s my enemy. And I don’t feel like we’re enemies. I am not of the same opinion. And I have a right to be of a different opinion. But I feel that I am being abused when I am blanketly being tagged as being against someone, thus grieving the Spirit. Contending with one another does not grieve the Spirit. Contentiousness grieves the Spirit. I have valid reasons for the way I feel. And I have valid reasons for my opinion. And I, and I simply, I simply state to you today, this is not an issue of personality. This is, if we’re going, as a Presbytery, we’re going to conduct ourselves within the guidelines of the General Assembly… I am not angry here, I am grieved. And I refuse to sit here and continue listening to those statements. I will talk to Bishop, uh, uh, Lester privately as he has asked me to do. I have no problem with that. But I do have problems, brethren, with us continuing to breed discord among ourselves with careless statements.
Voice: (not at microphone) Brother Acosta was first.
Horne: (not at microphone) He was here first.
Voices: Brother Acosta was first.
Lester: You made a statement that I said your name. I didn’t say your name.
Voices: Brother Acosta is first.
Lester: I didn’t say your name.
Aviles: I’m just the interpreter.
Acosta: Let’s go back to the word novice. Uh, it seems like we’re acting like little children. Uh, it, it, it grieves me. Uh, a brother that lives in the United States told me this. This brother told me that we do not understand what’s going on in the United States. But we do know the business of the Church. We don’t, uh, know what’s going on here. We have those, uh, books that are, uh, recorded in our mind, and what has been pressed down here, uh, what has been done here, it would rip apart the, the spirit of the, of the business of the Church. We were going to leave here because there are some bad business going on in the Church. And it, and it, and it hurts us that being, uh, stubborn, personal stubbornness would try to put themselves over the Presbytery, that is, uh, being stubborn. I want you to respect us Hispanics because we know the business of the Church also. And Brother Lester and Brother Nabors and Brother Dupre, if you have something against each other, go outside, but don’t ruin this Presbytery meeting. Uh, we’re against the brothers from South and Central America that we’re not following the process of the business of The Church of God. Uh, we’re millions, we’re not a few. We have a voice in The Church of God. We are the body of Christ…are not going to heaven—the North Americans are not going to heaven by themselves. Every color, uh, will go into heaven, not only the North Americans. I want to ask you in the love of Jesus, uh, go, go back to that, uh, attitude of friendship and, and, and get away from the, uh, uh, the things of compromise. Let’s begin to see the government and the glory of The Church of God just like it, it was in old times. We know the books. How can, in a moment, we kill the history of The Church of God. Brethren, reflect back through your lives. This is The Church of God.
Pimentel: God bless you, brethren. May God keep you. Uh, it seems like this morning, uh, there’s a different wind blowing. We started very well, but it seems like something, something, something wants to destroy us. That’s a bad spirit. We need to begin with the spirit that we felt this morning. Brethren, we are being directed, we are practically acting like little children. Little children. This moment that we have here, let’s not be throwing things in our faces, uh, to defend anyone or to discriminate against anyone. This moment that we have here, this is to do business for The Church of God. But as men of God, we need to be careful how we express ourselves. Something, uh, got my attention. Someone that stood at this, by this microphone. That there was, uh, anointed bishops and that there was some new ones that seemed that they, they wanted to bring all the attention to them. That happens in the world, in the political world. Not in The Church of God. I believe that everyone that’s here today, we are anointed of God. Because no other way, what would happen, I believe, brethren, that it’s, it’s the moment, it’s not the moment to be thinking and, and things. We need to think in the well being of The Church of God. I believe, brethren, and I’m prepared to do the will of God. And I am willing, I am willing to submit myself…the Holy Ghost unify us, uh, every one of us to search for the, the, the will of God. Let’s, let’s, let’s leave those things alone. We’re not here to…we are here to do…business for the Church. And we need to concentrate and focus ourselves in that point. God bless you.
Kalamba: Brother Patrice Kalamba from Democratic Republic of Congo. Uh, I believe since yesterday, I, I, I’ve been watching and, um, hearing people speaking here. I agree that, uh, we are here for Church business. Most of us, uh, I especially have traveled many miles because I wanted to see how theocracy operated in The Church of God. And when I got the invitation, I was placed, uh, before the choice by my boss to say if I choose the Church or my job. I say, I cannot miss this meeting. That’s why I came and I lose my job. But since yesterday I, I have the feeling that, um, we are turning around and most of the people coming here, they repeat what they already said. I wonder myself if it the first business of such a…in The Church of God. And my question is this. Is there any written texts which can regulate how to choose a moderator in The Church of God. And, the other question. Where is the Living God? Since, uh, we have three names, and all of them, I think myself, that they’re able to lead this meeting. But if we are of the same mind, I, I believe the Holy Ghost will help us to choose one name because we know that we are in unity for our God and for The Church of God. I have a motion so we can start from where we ended yesterday with the three names, and we can appoint one name and go on in this meeting. God bless you.
Dupre: Ray Dupre. There are two things I want to address.
Castellanos: Brother Dupre, I believe he made a motion. He made a motion for us to…
Voices: He didn’t make a motion.
Castellanos: Brother, did you make a motion to stay with the three…
Kalamba: That we could start…where we stop yesterday with the three names and, uh, if we can select one and go on instead of coming back again to uh,…
Castellanos: Do you recommend that, or…
Kalamba: I, I made a motion.
Castellanos: He made a motion. Can, can you just clarify that?
Kalamba: Yes, Yesterday we have three names. Instead of, uh, arguing outside of the three names now, we can just appoint one and go on…the moderator of this meeting and…instead of coming back again to discussion or… Then my motion is that we can start from where we stopped yesterday. Three names, someone come here in the front which we appoint one name and we go on with the meeting. Am I clear?
S. Smith: I, uh, not with me.
Voices: I’m not understanding.
S. Smith: We still have, we have three, we have three people. We still have to sort through that.
Kalamba: We have three of them.
S. Smith: We have three, yes. But we’re not unanimous on any one of them.
Kalamba: I wanted to…
S. Smith: Continue?
Kalamba: Yes.
S. Smith: You’re recommending we continue from where we were.
Kalamba: From where we started, yes.
S. Smith: Thank you. Thank you. That’s clear.
Dupre: Can I be permitted to offer an apology?
Castellanos: I’d like to also stop and apologize for anyone, Brother Dupre. He kept saying I made a motion so I…
Dupre: Bishop Acosta, I apologize if I have offended you. My intent was to not allow us the privileges of careless communication. And I apologize to you if I have offended you for contending against that. Bishop Lester, my comments were not intended to say that you spoke to me personally. But you did speak to the entire Presbytery with your comments, and I am a part of this Presbytery. If I have offended you, I apologize to you.
Lester: (not at microphone) I accept your apology and if I have offended you. I still…
Grant: I’d like to request that we go to prayer while these brethren work out whatever difference they need to work out.
(Prayer: 10:27am – 10:33am)
Acosta: Brother Donaldo Acosta. Uh, I want to ask for forgiveness for the word used… But I want to make one, uh, one thing clear. That Brother Dupre does not have to ask forgiveness for, for being in the way of Brother Nabors. ‘Cause that was, it’s the same thing that we feel, that nothing be read, uh, outside of the Presbytery. In a personal level, I believe Brother Nabors, he had been present to, uh, read anything at all or be here present. So nobody would think, so nobody, uh, can think that Brother Dupre had something against Brother Nabors. That is not. I believe the attitude Brother Dupre use, uh, is correct. And I praise God, I praise God for the, He stopped the error that wanted to be, take place. There is nothing Brother Dupre has something against Brother Nabors. Discipline is necessary in The Church of God. And I believe that any one of us would do the same thing if God inspired you.
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos. Brethren, uh, when I first, uh, got summoned to come to this meeting, and I believe…first-timers for a lot of us here. They told me one thing, that what’s going to be taking place was a lot of prayer. A lot of prayer, and more prayer. I know we’re in a business meeting and we need to conduct business. And for that, we need to have dialog. But, my own personal opinion, we have done the opposite. We have say a lot, and not pray a lot. That’s why we’re still not have a moderator. And I believe in my heart, like I say yesterday, there’s no seniority among us. God has chosen us. He has anointed every single one in this room…the anointing, that’s what will come from the Lord. The anointing gives you wisdom and understanding of the Church business. I’m, I’m with Brother Acosta. He might have more experience, uh, than many of us here. But I’m a true believer that experience goes out the door when the anointing of the Holy Ghost takes place. So we can’t go by experience. We got to seek the Lord for that anointing. We start again. We said this morning the first thing we going to do is select a moderator. We have offered discussion. And I just recommend, brother, let’s get back to that track. And let’s select moderator. And, uh, let’s, let’s end it somewhere, uh, the discussion has to stop on, uh, some point… I believe we need prayer, Brother Smith. I believe we need prayer. I believe we need prayer. It’s the only way we doing to come together. It don’t matter if Brother Dupre comes up here, Brother Wilda, or Brother Jernigan. Amen, we need prayer. And prayer is the only thing that’s going to bring us together. It’s the only thing that will bring us together. No man can bring us together but the Holy Ghost. Thank you, brethren.
S. Smith: Uh, do I understand we have a motion?
Castellanos: No…not a motion.
S. Smith: It was not a motion? But we, when we ended yesterday, we agreed that we would start again—I’m sorry.
Voice: (not at microphone) Brother Patrice made a motion.
S. Smith: He did make a motion? That we continue from where we were yesterday.
Voices: Yes.
S. Smith: Could we get a second on that motion. Are you giving a second on that motion, Brother Cannon? Okay, Brother Cannon is giving a second.
Voice: (not at microphone) Brother Smith, I think I remember yesterday that we start again and we call three of them… They are not, uh, candidate anymore…
S. Smith: No. No, no.
Voice: (not at microphone) No, they’re still candidates. We agreed, we agreed that we would make that decision today, whether we would continue with them as candidates or whether we would dismiss them and begin again. We have received a motion that we continue with these three. We have received a second. Is there any who’s opposed to continuing a little while longer. Okay. Not opposed to continuing? Okay.
(Spanish clarification)
S. Smith: The recommendation is that we begin where we were yesterday and continue to try to find one. Alright, if there’s none opposed, then we have agreed that we will start where we were yesterday and continue. And we probably should ask Brother Jernigan and Brother Wilda again to go out in the hot sun. Hopefully they can find an air conditioned place somewhere to go to for a little bit.
Wilda: (not at microphone) …we’re going to go to church.
S. Smith: Maybe we should all to go church and come back later (laughter). I’d like to put a request to us. Uh, the last, the last thing that we were engaged in yesterday, uh, we had brought Brother, uh, Dupre, uh, before you to, uh, see how you felt about him. And there were, uh, there were those who stood in opposition. Uh, in order for us to get to a place…
S. Smith: I, I don’t know that anyone could be mentioned that there won’t be some opposition to—would this Presbytery be happy to ask those who are opposed to Brother Dupre to go talk with him, and to express your concerns to him, and see if you could, if, if you could find a remedy with him. Uh, perhaps not. But to try to seek a remedy, we’ve got to take some direction. If you have a valid reason that you believe he cannot serve, you need to talk to him. Express those reasons to him. If he can’t satisfy you, come back and tell us you’re still not satisfied. Would the Presbytery be happy with that, going that direction? Uh, who was, I don’t know who was approaching here first. Was you…
Voices: (not at microphone) I think it was Brother Ramos.
S. Smith: Oh, I’m sorry. Yes. Yes, he was. I apologize.
Ramos: God bless you all, today. I believe that God is, is among, is among our midst. If…we wouldn’t have any problem. I would like to give a testimony. I was…even a physical fight. But here, that should, that does not take place. In Methodist church, all day, we could not, uh, for the whole day until night, and then, uh, later that evening they got into a physical fight. That’s what I believe, I know that the Holy Ghost has control. And I give thanks to the Lord that the only thing we could do is ask the Lord in prayer. That three people have been nominated…will be moderator. And I believe…today. God bless you all.
Grant: Uh, Mike Grant. I’d like to just share a little bit of my feeling and then, uh, then maybe make a motion. We selected three and tried one, if I can say it that way. I think we should at least consider the other two. Uh, and I would like to make a motion on one of them—and I’ll do it in just a minute—I’d like to make a motion on one of them, and we pray and seek God. And if the Holy Ghost don’t come down and tell us something, then we make a motion on the other one, and we pray and seek God. And if the Holy Ghost doesn’t come down on one of the two then we got problems…
(Spanish dialogue)
Grant: That’s the way I feel. And so I’m, I’d like to make a motion, uh, that we bring in Brother Wilda, uh, uh, and see if that’s, if we can agree on that. And I don’t say that because I’m in favor of Brother Wilda necessarily, that’s just the way I feel…so my motion is…bring Brother Wilda in and see.
Castellanos: You mean Brother Wilda be moderator, right?
Grant: I make a motion to that. Is there a second to the motion?
Castellanos: Brother Jose Castellanos and I second that motion. I second it.
Grant: Okay. Uh, is there any opposed? Can you come to the microphone?
Coronel: There’s, there’s, the, uh, case is not to leave everything else aside. I believe there’s need… due respect. We started this business. The multitude of counselors, uh, inclined to one man. There was about six, seven people that were not in accord. And, and when they asked to submit, they didn’t, they didn’t submit. To eliminate that we have to start again, we also have to have respect for the other one. I say I opposed to this.
Grant: Well, the idea here is, we’ve got a motion on the floor. If, if there is opposition to it that will not submit, then, then I withdraw the motion.
Castellanos: I withdraw my motion.
Grant: So, if you’re not willing to submit, uh asking for the record. Okay, he said he would not submit?
Castellanos: No.
Grant: Okay. Alright, then I withdraw the motion. I was just trying to find a way to get farther down the road.
Horne: (not at microphone) Do you withdraw your motion?
Castellanos: I withdraw my motion, too, Brother Horne.
Aviles: Arturo Aviles from Wisconsin. I think for us to be asked to go and talk to one of those that have been selected, uh, would be unfair because then I would ask the same thing of every other one that has not submitted to Wilda, Brother Wilda or Brother Jernigan. The reason would be that, that would take forever. And I also feel like we’ve been dealing with this business for too long, and we need to get along with God and, and get this finished. I feel like the man that I, that God has placed in my heart is the right man, and you might not think so. And the man that you have selected in your heart to be the man, you know, I don’t feel that he’s the right one. So, we’ve got a problem here. Then we’ve got a problem. To go and talk to this man individually, that will, that won’t help no matter… So, let’s get with God. Let’s go back to prayer and let’s seek the mind of God until we get an answer from Him. God knows, He knows, God knows who the man is that He wants…we don’t, but God knows. God sees the intent of the heart, He knows everything. So we need, we need to allow God to do what He wants to do in His Church.
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky and Southern Illinois. My heart is as grieved as yours. You may not recognize that, but it is. I hurt as much as you. I, I’ve had small remarks thrown to me this morning. I don’t understand them. I thought the proper pro, procedure was, when you have three nominations, you address each one of them. And you see who to, uh, go with one. You don’t force them to, uh, everybody that did, uh, opposes to, to give in to that before we go to the others and see how many is opposed. I’ve never seen it done like that. It seems to be that’s the proper procedure, that we call all three names. At least give the candidates—if we should call them that, and that’s obviously what they are—the courtesy of bringing their name up. They have been nominated. I believe you would agree they have been. So I believe we should give them the courtesy. And I’ve heard talk all morning, from the beginning, about submitting. I heard that in the, in the 1990 Presbytery meeting, too. They were forced and forced and forced. I’ve heard this group called the multitude of counselors. I really thought the multitude of counselors was the General Assembly. I may be a novice on that, I may be wrong. But I really have always thought the multitude of counselors was the General Assembly, not this Presbytery. And I’ve heard scriptures about submission. I believe in submission, but my spirit has to go with that spirit of submission. I have to feel the Holy Ghost prompting me. Or else majority rules. That’s not so in The Church of God. We’re no better off than we were, uh, how many years ago? Sixteen years ago, if we force brethren to do these kind of things. And with all due respect, Brother Steve Smith, I personally have never seen this, uh, asked of individuals who opposed, to go and talk and work it out with individuals. I, I don’t know if that would help—I, I want to do what, what can get us on, I really do. But I don’t feel it’s fair to ask us to do that. Again, we’re going back to majority rule. And that’s nothing against you, Brother Smith. I, I understand you’re wanting us to go on as much, as much as I do—we all do. So, if you want to respond to that while I’m here…
S. Smith: Uh, I think Brother Estep is suggesting that we bring the other two in one at a time and express—well, not bring them in, but bring them up—and, uh…right. I was merely seeking a remedy. And if, and if, and if bringing these brethren up works, that’s fine.
Estep: I don’t think it will work, Brother Smith, but I, but I, but I believe it to be proper procedure.
S. Smith: Okay, thank you. If it doesn’t work, we’ll, we’ll look for another remedy. Why don’t you go ahead and make a recommendation and we’ll get a second…
Estep: I don’t see why we’d have to have a recommendation to follow proper procedure, but if you want me to do that, I’m, I don’t mind doing that.
Grant: (not at microphone) We should do the same thing we did before.
S. Smith: We made a recommendation before.
Grant: (not at microphone) Make a motion and pray…
S. Smith: Yeah, we need a motion and a second.
Estep: I do believe it’s proper procedure that’s already in order, but if you want that done I don’t mind doing that. I, Donald Estep, make the motion that we follow proper procedure and bring the other individual names up, uh, one at a time, and get a response from that from the Presbytery, and then, uh, pray, and follow the procedure from there.
S. Smith: You want to make a motion to get one of these…
Estep: I did make the motion.
S. Smith: I mean, did, for, for one of them.
Estep: I said one at a time.
S. Smith: We need one.
Estep: Uh, Brother Wilda would be fine. It don’t matter which one is first.
S. Smith: Someone needs to make a recommendation as to who.
Estep: Brother Wilda would be alright.
Grant: Officially your motion is to bring Brother Wilda in?
Estep: Yeah, that’d be okay.
Grant: Can we get a second?
Neal: Uh, Brother Neal. I, I thought Brother Wilda’s name has already been, uh, brought up and rejected, if Brother Horne wants to read that back. So the very last person now to finish is Brother Jernigan. His, his is the last name that hasn’t been brought up.
Estep: …on Brother Wilda?
Horne: Brother Grant, you want me to read the minutes?
Voice: Nah, just tell me…
Horne: It has been done. It was brought up, then it was opposed.
Estep: That’s just simply, uh, the procedure and courtesy to the…
Grant: Okay, so your motion has been amended to be Brother Jernigan… I’ll second the motion, just…Mike Grant.
S. Smith: Opposed to Jernigan, is that what we’re saying? Uh, the request is out, is there anyone opposed to Brother Jernigan.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Opposed to him as moderator? I, I, I’m opposed to it…
S. Smith: I don’t think that’s been made perfectly clear yet.
D. Smith: …proper procedure, let’s make it clear.
Castellanos: Brother Estep will come up again.
Estep: I…I simply made it clear. I made a motion. I, Donald Estep, make the motion. I didn’t say the name of a person. Everybody kept telling me I got to give a name, so I gave a name. Brother Wilda was already rejected, so I suggested Brother Jernigan. So I make the motion. Brother Jernigan, now, is brought up…
Castellanos: His name brought up…to be the moderator.
Grant: Mike Grant…I’d like to make a comment. Brethren, are we not willing to even let the Holy Ghost possibly respond and speak to us by allowing us to consider...I’m sorry. Are, are we not willing to even consider that the Holy Ghost might speak to us on one of these, uh, by, by allowing a motion and second, and not opposing it, and letting us then go to prayer, and see if the Holy Ghost will give us an answer? I, I don’t really care which one we get, as long as we get what God wants. And if the Holy Ghost don’t speak to us, then, then I say, then we go from there somewhere else. But I’m asking you, can we not, please, at least let the Holy Ghost have an opportunity… That’s all I’m asking.
S. Smith: Our, our procedure is to go to prayer now. That was the next step, is to go to prayer. Yes, that’s what we should be doing right now, is go to prayer.
Castellanos: Let’s go to prayer.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Brother Smith, there’s still people that’s not clear…can we go back to step one?
S. Smith: Uh, we need everyone to listen carefully for a minute. We want to be sure we understand where we’re at. We’ve had a motion and a second to, uh, consider Brother Jernigan as our moderator. Those who have opposed it stood. Uh, next we should ask are they willing to submit. I’m seeing heads say no. Alright, then we are called then to go to prayer. And let’s open our hearts to the Holy Ghost again, brethren…hearts before God.
(Prayer: 11:04am—11:10am)
S. Smith: Uh, Brother Dupre has asked to, uh, to speak for a moment. Let’s, uh, if it’s alright, we’ll give way to him.
Castellanos: If Brother Dupre will be here, shouldn’t it be just a courtesy to bring the other two in?
S. Smith: Would you like to bring the other two in?
Dupre: Uh, I spoke to them about this and they’re comfortable with me being here without them.
S. Smith: Would you express that to the Presbytery clearly?
Dupre: Yeah, I have spoken to them, what I have in my mind. They are comfortable with me being here without them. At this point, I’m going to withdraw myself from the nomination for chairman. If God wants me to serve, He’s got another way to put me in. I refuse to be a bone of contention, so I withdraw the nomination.
S. Smith: Actually, uh, who made the motion to consider him? And who made the second?
Voice: …say, if there’s any still opposed first?
S. Smith: Oh, okay. Let’s, let’s go back where we’re at and then we’ll bring that up. We need to see, uh, on the issue where we’re at. Those who, uh, were opposed, are you unwilling to submit? If you’re still unwilling to submit, we’d like for you to stand. Alright, you may be seated.
Coronel: I said this morning that I was, uh, available to change the sentiment that’s in my heart. And what has been said here in this case, uh, that if we would, if it was, uh, feasible to eliminate the three and start all over again, and I’m, I’m for that right now. I don’t understand how much pressure has been put on him for him to withdraw. When I, uh, asked Brother Dupre if he was ready and willing to take this position and the responsibility he has before God and The Church of God, and he said yes. I believe, uh, there’s been pressure put upon him for him not to be in this position. Because we have heard things in this place here, things against, uh, Brother Dupre. Uh, none of us have said anything against Brother Wilda, uh, or against Brother Jernigan. I will not submit. And if we eliminate all three of them, then yes.
S. Smith: Are you making a motion then that we…
Coronel: I make a motion that we begin anew.
Grant: (not at microphone) Could we finish the motion that we had up there and get a withdrawal—because we need to withdraw the motion that was on the floor, concerning Brother Jernigan.
S. Smith: Alright, could you withdraw those motions. Brother Acosta? Who made the, who…
Grant: Brother Estep made the motion.
S. Smith: Now, what, you’re talking about, regarding Jernigan? Brother Jernigan?
Estep: …
Grant: Who was it that made the motion? We had a motion.
Voice: Brother Nabors, I mean, Brother Aviles.
Aviles: No, I never made a motion.
S. Smith: No, no, no. Brother, uh, Estep, for the sake of getting it going, recommended Brother Jernigan be considered. Ex-, excuse me a minute, uh, we don’t have to withdraw those nomination. That has been, has been rejected. That’s already been done. Am I correct? I’m trying to stay… Okay, Brother Jernigan was brought up. There were those who opposed and would not submit, and therefore, as with the others, that concludes that recommendation. Now, we have a new motion has been made that we with, withdraw these three and begin fresh. Do we have a second on that motion? We already have a first. We need a second.
Acosta: I would like to ask these brethren before us, uh, that we, uh, direct the, the, the correct business. Uh, let’s finish with one subject, and, and not mix two or three subjects because that confuses us. I want to, uh, reaffirm my, my, my thoughts with Brother Coronel that, uh, the other two participants be eliminated.
S. Smith: Okay, then, then you are seconding that. He has seconded that. Alright, are there any opposed to doing that?
Grant: (not at microphone) Can you repeat the motion so we’ll know exactly what…
S. Smith: Okay, the motion is that we start, that we remove all three nominations.
Horne: (not at microphone) Brother Dupre withdrew.
S. Smith: Yeah, Brother Dupre has withdrawn.
Horne: (not at microphone) So there’s two.
S. Smith: But we have nom-, we have recommended these three. Are we agreeing, then, that we withdraw those recommendations and start with a clean slate? Any opposed to that? Okay. Then, uh, we’re, we’re starting fresh. And I know that we’re getting mentally and emotionally tired, but I do want to encourage, encourage us when we go to prayer, let’s touch heaven in these prayers. When flesh gets weak, let’s fight through. Let’s get a hold of our Savior.
Lester: (not at microphone) Are you going to ask for nominations before you pray?
S. Smith: Uh.
Leighty: (not at microphone) Should we not let them come back in here?
S. Smith: Yes, they need to come back in. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone have a clue where they are?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) They’re at church (laughter).
S. Smith: Oh, they may be at church. Would you agree to a break for about, uh, 15 minutes while we get them back in and we’ll, uh, get some drinks. We’ll break. Is that satisfactory? No objections?
Horne: (not at microphone) What time are we coming back?
S. Smith: We’ll come back at 11:35.
1:02pm
Jernigan: If it’d be okay, brethren, I’d just like to read these scriptures. Taken from the book of Ephesians the, uh, 4th chapter, beginning with the 29th verse, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.” And I want to say, God, help me to accept the reading of this Word, to apply it to my heart and soul. I’d like to make a statement according to, uh, the selection as myself as moderator of this Presbytery meeting. If it would be pleasing with you brethren, I’d like to rescind my selection.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) Should you, do you want to explain that we already withdrawn…
Aviles: No, I, I, I need to make an announcement. Then I’ll turn it over to you.
S. Smith: Oh, I’m sorry. Okay.
Aviles: Uh, yesterday Brother Ard gave money to our brethren. And there was, uh, two hundred dollar bills that were stuck together. And, uh, he would like, uh, if you have them, uh, if you spent them, let him know about it. ‘Cause he’s going crazy looking for it. So, uh, anybody has two hundred dollar bills, two one hundred dollar bills stuck together, they belong to Brother Ard (laughter).
Lester: These are not stuck together.
Aviles: I told him if he gives me half I won’t say nothing (laughs). It’s for a mission.
S. Smith: Uh, I want to apologize to Brother Jernigan and Brother Wilda. Uh, we failed to communicate this to you, but just prior to our dismissing for lunch, uh, the Presbytery agreed, uh, to, uh, rescind all the motions that had been made, and to start this session with a clean slate and begin to make new recommendations and go from there. So, that’s where we’re at. It would seem to be appropriate maybe before we even do that, to go on our knees again, brethren. And then, uh, whoever feels led, why, come to the mike. But let’s go on our knees.
(Prayer: 1:07pm-1:16pm)
Horne: I was feeling in my spirit, it would be good if we stood and just worshipped the Lord for just a moment. I serve a bilingual region, and, uh, we often sing the song, “We’ve Got the Power.” I’m reminded that though Satan rages, we shall not be defeated. I’d like to sing this in, uh, English and Spanish.
(Spanish dialogue)
Aviles: Hermano Jose, front and center.
Horne: We’ll start in English as he makes his way here.
(Singing: “We’ve Got the Power;” worship)
Dewberry: Brother Dewberry from Louisiana and Mississippi. I’d like to nominate Brother Stephen Smith.
(Spanish dialogue)
Coronel: Uh, I want to say that in the church in the wilderness, before the, the Church could be dressed in the power of the Holy Ghost, uh, Peter was the, the moderator, like the moderator. After the Holy Ghost falls upon the Church, uh, uh, uh, there seemed to be a change, uh, because as we look back we can see, uh, James as the Overseer of The Church of God. Uh, what we need today, uh, we need somebody to come forward and lead us as a Presbytery so that we can move forward. And I, uh, second the motion of uh, Brother Dupre, I mean Dewberry, I’m sorry (mistake made by translator.)
(Clarification)
Aviles: Brother Dewberry, I’m sorry.
Horne: Dewberry made the motion.
Aviles: Okay, I’m sorry. Brother Smith.
Castellanos: Brother Jose Castellanos. I make a motion to, uh, nominate Brother, Bishop Forbes as a moderator.
Lester: I second that motion.
Pimentel: God bless you. Brother Juan Pimentel, from the Dominican Republic. I second the motion, Brother Forbes.
Horne: Uh, James Horne. I would like to nominate Elliott Leighty.
Jernigan: Paul Jernigan. If it, if it is in order, I’d like to request that these nominations cease at this time.
Aviles: You want to second the motion?
Jernigan: Well.
Voices: There’s no second on Brother Leighty.
Jernigan: Okay, after, after Brother Leighty, if there, if there is a second on…
Dupre: (not at microphone) Okay, I’ll…second.
Jernigan: I, I apologize, Brother Leighty. I certainly wasn’t overlooking you on the second, I, uh, honestly was not.
Grant: I make a second the nominations cease. Mike Grant.
Aviles: Brother Banuelos seconds the motion. Brother Grant?
Voice: What is, what’d he say? The motion that he made.
Voice: (not at microphone) It was seconded twice.
Horne: (not at microphone) It was seconded twice. Jer-, Jernigan made the motion, Brother Grant seconded it, and then Brother Banuelos seconded it again.
Aviles: Okay. What are you doing about Brother Grant?
Grant: Yeah, he seconded…
Horne: Brother Jernigan…
Aviles: Brother Jernigan, okay.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Are we going to ask these three to go out like we did before?
Lester: (not at microphone) I don’t think so, I don’t, I’m not in favor of that.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Favor of what?
Lester: (not at microphone) Of having them go out…
D. Smith: Brother…(coming to microphone) Dewayne Smith, Arkansas/Missouri. What about the three that was nominated. Do you want to be in here, or you want to…?
S. Smith: I think there’d be more freedom to discuss without us here. I would feel better not being in here unless you need me.
D. Smith: I guess we should ask, uh, does all three accept the nomination?
S. Smith: (not at microphone) I, I’ll accept the nomination.
D. Smith: Brother Forbes, you accept the nomination?
(No audible answer on recording, but accepted)
Aviles: Brother Leighty?
Leighty: (not at microphone) I will, I will for now.
D. Smith: You will?
Leighty: (not at microphone) Uh, yes.
D. Smith: Okay. Do ya’ll want to leave or do you want to be in here during discussion. Brother Smith said he’d rather be out.
S. Smith: If you would desire me here I’ll stay, it’s, it’s... Whatever these brethren want to do, I’ll go along with them.
Leighty: (not at microphone) I would rather step out. I feel like Brother Smith—there’d be more freedom.
Aviles: How about you, Brother Forbes? You’ll leave?
D. Smith: He wants to leave?
Aviles: Mm-hmm.
D. Smith: Okay. Alright. Ya’ll can be dismissed.
(Brother Forbes, Brother Leighty, and Brother S. Smith vacated the building)
Jernigan: Brethren, I’m at a little bit of a loss. I don’t know that there’s any sense of direction that we need to take other than seek the favor of God. Of any of our questions that we may have to ask. And I, I feel in my heart that it would only be pertinent to this meeting that we address any questions that particularly pertains to the, uh, moderator and him standing before us. Um, any other avenue I, I would not feel comfortable with, but, but I believe God’s brought us to this place and we can do that. And, uh, I still remind us again, we can only see the outward, but God sees the inward. And He sees the heart. So, I guess the next thing would be to call one in?
Horne: (not at microphone) Can we go to prayer?
Jernigan: Before that we do that, before we call anyone in, I think that it would be wisdom for us to pray one more time. Would you just simply stand to your feet, that God would bring us together.
(Prayer: 1:33pm—1:54pm; message in tongues given, no interpretation)
(Prayer: 1:33pm—1:54pm; message in tongues given, no interpretation)
Lester: I believe it’d be good for us to pray for an interpreter. Would you stand with me and pray?
(Continuation of prayer, still no interpretation; long period of silence)
Dupre: Brethren, I would like to read a verse of scripture. Ray Dupre is my name. Acts, chapter 1, beginning with verse 20. “For it is written in the book of Psalms…” Beginning with verse 20, and I will read through, uh, 26. “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.” We have three good men before us. I believe that we can pray as was done in the book of Acts, and let God decide by a random casting of the lot. Um, that, that is my comments. That’s how I felt as the Spirit moved. So we can avoid this becoming a contest as to the most skilled, or the most uh, able. God knowest the heart. And I believe I can trust in the prayer, as well as God controlling the casting of the lot. Would, would you just like to go to prayer?
Lester: I believe Brother Dupre asked for prayer, for us to go to prayer with this scripture. Is that right?
Dupre: Yes. Yes, and, brethren, if I have misunderstood the intent of this scripture, please help me. But my understanding is that, since these brethren of their own understanding seen no reason neither of these two could not have been chosen, uh, the, the casting of the lot, after prayer, was their confidence that God would make the choice. And unless there’s a reason why we feel any one of these three men equally could have, be, could not be the moderator, I believe we, too, can pray and as that name falls forth from the casting of a lot… My understanding is you would just have to put each name on a piece of paper, as we would understand it today, and let one be randomly be pulled out. And we accept that as God’s choice.
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky/Southern Illinois. I am not, not opposed to the prayer. But I am opposed if there’s any kind of a voting, whether it be casting of lots, by paper or ballot. This incident, if I understand the scripture correctly, was before the Holy Ghost was given. This is right back, again, where we were in 1990. We voted. I just cannot accept that.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I still believe that we need to go to prayer. And, and, God knows who’s He wants up here, let’s let the Holy Ghost, let’s hear from God.
(Prayer: 2:01pm—2:17pm)
Dupre: Ray Dupre. I apologize. Uh, I honestly never considered this scripture a reference to voting, nor the analogy an indication of a vote. But to our brethren who may feel that way, I do apologize. I’ve always considered this, uh, incident in scripture an indication of a multiplicity of ways in which God can move. God has always been with us in His Triuneness, while the Holy Ghost came personally into us, He has never been absent from us. So therefore the Holy Ghost could have worked in the casting of the lots, whether He had made His personal entrance into us. There are manifold manifestations of the Spirit of God. We must open our mind up to that potential. God certainly could use a message and interpretation to settle this matter. But I feel the Spirit, uh, brought my, my attention to that particular incident to help us understand that God has many ways that His Spirit can work. The brethren here, in this particular incident in the Bible, it appears to me, had great confidence in both of these men, and feared that their personal selection could be a preference one over the other. And so their desire for God to settle it was predicated on the casting of the lot. To, so to me this incident is in reference to confidence and trust in God from people who are, who are pure of heart. And acknowledging to God, “We don’t know, God,” but we are confident that these two candidates equally could satisfy the need that was there. And I think, if we’re not careful, we could solidify our minds on a particular feeling as we understand the analogy. Uh, and my thinking—and I’m just trying to share with us, brethren—in my thinking, I, I can’t fathom that casting of the lot is in any way voting on anything. In other words, there is no number of votes there where two would be, uh, would say this one won it because he only, he got two and the other one got one. So in my mind I don’t, I don’t understand this analogy to mean a voting. But I do understand the analogy to mean a trust and confidence that, “God, You can settle this.” Uh, but I do apologize to our brethren who may understand it differently.
Neal: Carl Neal. Uh, our brothers stood outside yesterday for an awful long time and, uh, and I’d hate to see the same thing happen today. If those are going to know already that they’re in opposition to any of the three that’s been selected, it would be good if you’d just stand and say, “Yes, I’m against so-and-so,” “I’m against so-and-so,” and get that out of the way. Should we pass out papers? One, I accept the nomination; one, I reject the nomination. And then collect them all in, one from each delegate here, and then count, count them? That’s a vote, isn’t it?
Voices: (not at microphone) Yes. It’s a vote.
Neal: Those that stood in opposition, was a vote against them.
Voices: (not at microphone) No, it wasn’t. No, no.
Neal: We did not accept unanimously the brethren that was, uh, nominated. Nor did we reject them unanimously. All I’m trying to say is, think about it for a minute. Rather than have a vote from majority rule, it’s a vote for minority rule. Now, you may not see it that-a-way, but if you take, take your blinders off, that’s exactly what we did. The majority—mi-, minority ruled. And all I’m saying here, I did not stand against any of the three brethren. I will not stand against any of these three brethren. So I’m ready to accept whichever one that the, the body of us selects. But, to make it faster, if you’re already going to reject somebody, please stand and do it now so they don’t have to stand outside all day.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith. Ever since yesterday when the three men were nominated, Brother Stephen Smith pretty well took charge as far as the order and moderating is concerned, and he done the same thing today. To my knowledge, nobody had a problem with that. And if we didn’t have a problem with that then, why would there be a problem now? He’s simply moderating, and it’s time to get on with the business.
Pimentel: Bless you all, brethren. Juan Pimentel from Dominican Republic. I believe that there should be of one mind, to, uh, to be able to go on and finish with this business. The brethren, uh, outside, they are waiting upon us to come to a conclusion. And they, uh, I don’t think it’s, it’s a good or beneficial for them to spend the afternoon outside. I don’t, I’m not, I’m not in accord with, uh, with the brother…paper because those are the secular way. Here, who takes control is the Holy Ghost. I believe, brethren, uh, I, I believe we should reduce, reduce to two, uh, from the brethren we’re nominating, and bring us, bring them forward, the two that…and praying to the Lord that the Holy Ghost decides which of them two. God bless you, brethren.
Acosta: Brother Donaldo Acosta. I believe, brethren, and I like, uh, the words from Brother Juan Coronel. Somebody else to step forward here and uh, and, uh, address the same words that Brother Pim-, that Brother Coronel did, but not in the same manner. It’s, it’s important to see the early Church, that there’s, um, a man that was moderating that was, had not been authorized. He was the apostle Peter. The minute I saw Brother Smith, that he took control, uh, of the Presbytery. And every, everything was, everyone was, uh, okay with that. I don’t know Brother Smith, uh, uh, closely. I’ve never had a conversation with him. As, as you can see, I don’t speak English (laughs). I, I rejoice, uh, and I feel good seeing him moderating, uh, uh, in…of the Spirit. And I also want to say this, appealing to the business of the Church, uh, uh, we cannot bring the brother in here and have two here, or three, because we’re always going to be inclined to whoever we want to be. There’s always going to be two, uh, two, uh, options. Two groups. And the, the Holy Spirit has given us the authority. We are His Church, we are organized. If we cannot, we, we can make the first mention, the first motion and second that. Uh, uh, somebody came up, up front here and said, Why don’t we not recommend someone, someone… (Spanish clarification) If we, if we put a person in here and we recommend them, and the Church, uh, would say to accept them or not. Because that’s how business should be carried on. Nobody could, uh, say they come, uh, bring someone forward and recommend them and the, uh…business would go on. That’s been the custom of The Church of God…says make a first motion, and second. I believe we’ve been authorized by the Holy Ghost, and what we have set in business is going to have the, the signature and seal of the Holy Ghost. Uh, they, the good thing and we have, uh, three, uh, more, three new nominees. If, uh, there were two groups here, uh, we would here, we all, we all could say now there’s only one group. Uh, he’s going to, uh, show if we have…or not. Thank you, brethren.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. We’re right, I, I didn’t want to see these men go out today, these three, because I feel that we’re all men here to where we could, uh, decide who, who we want. And I’m not in favor of asking questions any more of them. That led us to a stalemate yesterday, the questions. And it, and it has created hard feelings. So I feel that, surely to God, if we’re going to get done with this…(laughter) we’re going to have to break down the wall. The wall has got to come down. Therefore we must do what He wants, what God wants us to do. So, I’m in, I don’t know, if, whatever God wants for uh, either one of these three men. That’s up to God. I, I for one, let’s break down the wall. Let’s, let’s get it together. And let’s pick a man and go on with this business. Thank you.
(After receiving permission, Brother Leighty and Brother Forbes enter the building)
Leighty: Um, I’m, asked permission to speak. Um, um, I’m, I am uh, withdrawing my name from the nomination. Thank you.
Forbes: I, too, brethren select to withdraw my name from this nomination, and, uh…
Castellanos: …now we’re down to one.
D. Smith: That leaves one name for us to consider here. I make a motion that we accept Brother Stephen Smith as moderator.
Kramer: Melvin Kramer from Georgia and Florida. I, I second that motion.
(Applause)
Castellanos: Should we go ahead and proceed?
Voice: We need to ask if there’s anyone opposed?
Castellanos: Is anyone was opposed?
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky/Southern Illinois. God forbid that I do anything wrong or hold us up. And with all due respect of the two nominees, I really don’t like how this has taken place. And, but I’ll submit to the body if, uh, everyone here has the same feelings. There’s been a lot said here. I appreciate Brother, Brother Dupre’s enticing words and his eloquent speech. But we need the wisdom of God. And I just don’t like what’s happening in this Presbytery and I need your prayers. I am not a rebel. I’m here by the hand of God. I’ve been near death several times in the last few years, and I know how quick someone can leave here. But I also know God has raised me up for a reason, and I don’t want to displease him. I, uh, my first statements here in this meeting yesterday morning, I warned us that if we did not have someone to moderate to get us started, that we’d be as school boys in the yard. And that is exactly what has happened here. We have fought each other. Um, picture it any way you want to. There has been some pretty hard feelings, and some pretty harsh statements. And somewhere we’ll have to reckon with that. I believe we missed the will of God yesterday morning. We had a theocratic process in place, and we skipped that. And I’m afraid there are personal feelings that we have not disclosed. I don’t know about all that, but I know how my heart feels. The theocratic process starts from the top at the General Overseer, and then it’s delegated by the General Assembly to us as National, State, or Regional Overseers, what we delegate to District Overseers and pastors, and to the local church. You and I have no authority of our own. Everything, every authority we have, all powers that we have, are delegated to us. We have no authority. The Presbytery consists of the General Overseer, and us. And here we are, at a moment we were at a stalemate. And I feel like we’re seeking a very quick way out. That’s the way the world does it in politics. We look for a quick way out. If it does not fit, use a bigger hammer. And I feel like I’ve been forced into, uh, my decisions throughout this meeting. And that’s where I stand now. God bless you, I love every one of you. I feel that there are those, some of those here, that question the legit, the legitimacy of my being here. But in fact, most of you do not even know me. If you want to know about a subject, you go to the source of that subject. You don’t take information that you hear everywhere else to make a judgment about that subject. I know more about me than anybody else in this world except God. And I am under, under divine appointment just as you are. And I want you to know I love every one of you. I’m not just trying to cause trouble. I love The Church of God as much as anyone. God bless you.
D. Smith: We have a motion and a second, and I believe I understood Brother Estep to say that he would submit to this body if that’s what it wants. All in favor of Brother, uh, Stephen Smith—do we need to go to prayer first, and then ask if, now, he said he was willing to submit.
Voice: We can pray, that’s fine.
D. Smith: Okay. Let’s to go prayer. And then we’ll come back and look at that again. So, let’s go to prayer.
(Prayer: 2:43pm—2:49pm)
Coronel: Brothers, uh, Juan Coronel, Argentina and Brazil. It don’t seem there was, uh, any intervention on, on our part that, that, or the decision that has taken place. I believe that God is doing what He, He wants to do. Uh, there’s only one man left, one man left. I think that we have to call him in and, and pray for him and anoint him and, and let him continue, uh, moderating this meeting.
D. Smith: I believe in order to, uh, follow the proper procedure, after that prayer, I need to ask those that still oppose—oppose Brother Smith—would you stand?
Lester: (not at microphone) I have reservations, Brother, uh, Dupre—or, uh, Brother Smith—and I’m bothered with it right now and therefore I’m having to stand for a little bit to see. I’ve got some reservations. I’m not feeling the freedom…
D. Smith: Let me add this, to go along with what Brother Coronel said. For two days we’ve been praying for God’s will to be done. We all agreed to these three that were nominated. Of their own accord, they withdrew their names. So I would have to feel that God has worked this out.
Voices: (not at microphone) Amen.
D. Smith: His will has been done. We need to submit to the will of God. Do you want to say something or…
Cannon: I certainly don’t want to be against the will of God. I came here…
Voice: (not at microphone) We can’t hear you, brother.
Cannon: I came here praying—can you hear me?—and seeking God and the Holy Ghost to set a man in office, and I believed that’s what He would do. We have prayed, we have fasted, we’ve sought God, but I’ve not yet heard the Holy Ghost… all I’ve heard is the wisdom of man. And I’ve heard brethren speak…and I love them and I appreciate them…in my heart. But I still, when I came, I believed God would tell us through the Holy Ghost… We need a moving of the Holy Ghost… If Brother Smith is to be the moderator, we need the Holy Ghost to tell us that Brother Smith not just…withdraw their nominations. That’s easy…but we want God. And from this day forward, whatever we do, we will give an account of that before God. And if we do miss the boat, we’re going to all pay for it. I love you’s and I’ll do what’s right. And you’ll find my heart will be right. But I still haven’t heard the Holy Ghost. So far all I’ve heard is man. And I think we need the Holy Ghost to sanction this, if that’s the Holy Ghost’s will and God’s will, I’ll do whatever… God bless you. I love you. I appreciate your patience with me.
Leighty: Elliott Leighty, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, Massachusetts. I just wanted it to be on record, the reason I withdrew my name. Uh, as we were in the church, the Zion Hill church—it’s not some type of conspiracy, if anyone here is thinking that—when you are faced with something like this, you really search your heart. And I want it to be on record, I do not feel in my heart that God has chosen me to be a moderator. And I just want that to be on the record. And, brothers, you can think, I guess, whatever you want to think. But in my heart I just do not feel like…moderator, and that’s why I withdrew. Thank you.
D. Smith: We’ve had a motion and a second that Brother Stephen Smith be the moderator. Those that oppose that, I would like to ask if you would be willing to submit…
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos. Uh, I oppose the, uh, the motion. And I just want it to be in the record that I think we’ve missed the boat since the beginning, but I will submit to continue seeking the Lord’s will. And I will go ahead and submit… But, I just want to show in the record, okay, that I think we missed the boat.
D. Smith: Alright, he’s submitted to Brother Stephen Smith’s nomination. Is there anyone else?
Grant: Mike Grant. Uh, I feel somewhat like Brother Cannon in terms of the Holy Ghost speaking to us. I believe that is our, I believe that is our greatest confirmation that we’re doing the will of God. I don’t know that we always have to have His confirmation, but I will say that, as we go forward, I will not submit unless the Holy Ghost tells us who the General Overseer is to be. I can submit to this because this is just, uh, a temporary thing. But we’re going to have to have the Holy Ghost or I don’t believe that I can be satisfied. And I believe that even if it costs me my job, my position, and everything else, I’m willing to say, I’ve got to have the Holy Ghost… I’m willing to go forward, Brother Estep. I’ve got some reservations, but it’s alright. But I will say I, I do believe we missed the will of God yesterday morning. It’s alright with me if we flounder around a little bit because I trust God. Really, it’s alright. But ultimately, when we come out of this meeting, we will have to know that we have found the will of God. Until then, I’m not willing to leave. I want God and I want to know that I’ve got God. So I’ll gladly submit. I have no problems with that.
Estep: Donald Estep. I feel like from the beginning of this meeting, those of us who have felt to oppose anything, we’ve had scriptures read to us—which is good—but we don’t just read scriptures when they fit what we want. I feel, again, that we have missed it from the beginning. My feeling is, we have operated as free holiness, free Pentecostal, no one in particular in charge. That’s what we’ve done, brethren. We are not free holiness, and we are not in charge. It’s like wearing a hat that says, “Which way did they go? For I am their leader.” And the hat has two bills on it. We’ve had no real direction in this meeting. And I’m willing to go with, with the flow here for the moment, but I don’t care how much you try to force me, when the real decision comes down to the General Overseer, if I don’t feel the Holy Ghost, I’ll be here till 2010. I will not accept it unless the Holy Ghost speaks. And I do not believe, He has not spoke to me. But, for unity sake, we will go on. God bless you.
Coronel: I don’t understand too much what is happening between some of you. Juan Coronel, Argentina, Brazil. I don’t understand too much, uh, with the brethren that are coming forward to speak. Uh, that the Holy Ghost needs to tell them who the person is. I want to tell you my brother, that, that God works with a, a human agency here on earth. You have authority to make decisions with the direction of the Holy Ghost. You don’t have to necessarily be waiting for a message in tongues because when they, uh, summoned us to this place, then it’s us, the Presbytery, that are responsible to, to elect a person. And in the, uh, General Assembly will be determined by acclamation if he is the man of God or if he’s not the man of God. Uh, I don’t understand because at first we elected three, and now we’re not even in accord. I feel like there’s a, a fear or a, a, we don’t, we don’t have confidence in God. Nobody wants to force anybody. But we want to do everything right for God. Uh, in reality, I don’t understand what’s…or what, what you want. I don’t understand. We had three yesterday, and three today. Uh, God, God has, uh, decided. Brothers, please, uh, somebody said that we’re big people—grown-ups—with a lot of experience in God. Uh, there’s things in the Bible that the Bible tells me that I need to do. Uh, not, not, the Holy Ghost doesn’t necessarily doesn’t talk to me all the time, and me neither, but I know what I have to do for God. And if the brother says, uh, he’s going to be here until 2010, then you are holding up the process of The Church of God with progress. I don’t work like that, brother. God does not work like that, brother. And God has the, the human agency here to, to, to decide or determine. Uh, uh, once again we’re, we’re, we’re returning back, going backwards. I hope that God will help us. I’m not afraid of anybody, I don’t…God is going to put the one that He wants placed in that position. If I don’t want it, or whether you want it, God’s going to do His will. Thank you.
Lester: Ralph Lester, Tennessee. I said I have reservations. I still have my reservations, but in fairness and to move, move this thing on, I will submit. I will submit. However, I’m in agreement with the other brethren about the General Overseer… I will not go along with any name calling. It’s going to have to be the Holy Ghost… But I will submit to the name of Brother Smith.
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky/Southern Illinois. I respect you, Brother Coronel, and I love you. I always have. I submitted. What else do you want? I submitted. That’s all I can do. What I meant by the statement of being here until 2010, I don’t have a, I don’t have to have a Holy Ghost message and interpretation and I operate every day by the leading of the Holy Ghost. Just like you. Just like you, sir, I have to have…
Estep: …a prompting of the Spirit. And I think we haven’t had that. If I’ve failed somewhere because of that, I, I ask your forgiveness. There’s no one here that loves The Church of God more than I do. But yet I don’t feel I love it more than you do. If you didn’t love it, I don’t believe you’d be here. Surely not. I trust you and I, I, somewhere we have to stop…we’d better stop trying to get back at each other. Someone comes up here and says something, then we feel like we have to do better, brethren, that’s got to stop. We cannot go farther and have unity like this. We’ve got to have a trust of each other. And that is not here. And we need that. How can we come together, except we agree? Is that right? Somehow you’ve got to trust me and I’ve got to trust you. And let’s quit beating each other and hammering each other, and let us go on. I said to Brother Smith how I felt, and he said we’ve all felt that. And we have. Now, now, brethren, let’s stop that. And go on with the work that we’re here for. God bless you again. I love you.
Jernigan: Brethren, don’t anyone panic—I’m not going to oppose (laughter). But I truly feel in my heart that where we missed it yesterday morning was going two hours and ten minutes before we prayed. And I just wonder if we wouldn’t take that in consideration and let that be a wonderful lesson to us, without contacting the Lord, calling upon Him first of all. We do ask thanks and give thanks for the food we’re about to receive… And I feel like that it would be the wisdom of this Presbytery to always put God first—pray first—before that we move any farther. And I want you to know that I love you, brethren. And I believe that God is still able, as the second issue that I made, that He can melt this pot together, and we can work and labor together. And we can be The Church of God that God wants us to be. And, uh, I, I still walk in the fear of God. And I, too, I must hear from God when it comes to the selection of the General Overseer. I must know that it is God that is speaking to this body of men. And I’m trusting that the Lord will do that for us. And I believe the Lord is going to help us. I’ve got that confidence in God.
(Much interpretation by Brother Aviles; question by Brother Banuelos as to the translation)
Aviles: I am in, uh, this is what Brother Jernigan was saying, that next time let this be a lesson to us. That before we do any business for The Church of God, let us go to God first and give Him the glory and the honor. Let’s pray before we do anything. We went two hours and ten minutes without even one time going to the Lord—let this be a lesson to us. And he also made mention that he will stay here until the Holy Ghost picks the man that He wants for The Church of God. We do not want no flesh directing The Church of God. We have so many problems because we have allowed the flesh to take over the meetings and everything we have to do. But next time it’s going to be the Spirit of God—and I am with him, and I am with all the brethren that are here—that if you want to hear from God and you want Him to select the man that He wants for that position, then I will also stay here until God selects the man that He wants. It’s not name dropping, it’s not voting, it’s not anything like that—brother, it’s going to have to be the Holy Ghost! (Praying) It will have to be the Holy Ghost! Gloria! Enough of these childish things that we’re going—there are thousands of souls that are going to hell while we’re sitting here, playing games—it’s time that we stop! (Amens)
D. Smith: I’d like to say when these two brethren came in and rescinded their names, and Brother Stephen Smith was left, I felt the Holy Ghost quicken me. I said I felt the Holy Ghost. He is here with us. Now, everyone has submitted. There’s been a motion, and a second. Everybody submitted. Brother Stephen Smith, would you stand? I’d like for us to stand, and those that can gather around him, gather around him, gather around him and pray. Brother Smith, the Lord has, the Lord has selected you to be moderator. Gather around him if you can and let’s pray and ask God to anoint him.
(Prayer: 3:14—3:17)
S. Smith: I want to say that I love each one of you, and I appreciate the, uh, trust that you’ve placed in me. I’m sure that there probably are some of you that may feel apprehensive about me, but with the help of the Lord, I want to conduct myself in a way that you will be pleased and feel that I have been obedient to the Lord and to the General Assembly. When Brother Forbes and Brother Leighty came to me and, uh, told me that they were coming to have their names removed, I began to pray and seek the Lord. And I did that silly thing we do sometimes. I just let my Bible fall open. And I said, “Jesus, is there something from the Bible You could say to me?” And my eyes immediately fell on Daniel, chapter 10, and verse 18. “Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.” I don’t know who that man was that touched Daniel, but I need that same man to touch me. I’m talking about strength in the, the, the inner man to be obedient to the General Assembly, to the Holy Ghost, to the Word of God, and to moderate this thing in a way that this Presbytery will know we have been obedient to God. God bless you, brethren. I don’t know where we’re at, if you need a break or if you’re ready to proceed. Do we need a recess? If, if it’s satisfactory, why don’t we give you about 20 minutes and, uh, let everybody get a drink, catch their breath, and uh, we’ll, uh, see if we can proceed from there.
Horne: (not at microphone) Can you state a time to come back?
S. Smith: What time is it?
Horne: (not at microphone) It’s 3:20, so it would be 3:40.
S. Smith: Okay. We’ll start again at 3:40.
3:40pm
S. Smith: It’s time for us to come back to order here. Uh, I’ve had several suggestions given to me already. Uh, Brother Aviles said that some of the Spanish brethren have suggested that we, uh, dismiss for the day and spend time resting and in prayer and begin again tomorrow morning. This is where you speak (laughter).
Neal: Brother Neal from South Carolina. I feel like maybe we could get some of the preliminaries out of the way. Maybe establish a form, uh, a format on how we should bring things up, uh, are we, uh, do we want to go over to the church building tomorrow for, for comfort. Uh, some, just the, the small things.
S. Smith: Okay, let me mention…
Neal: …facing in the morning.
S. Smith: Some are suggesting that we go over there and use the, uh, auditorium. Um, we would have to ask the pastor. The only question there, I’m sure, is they will not let us take food and drinks in there. So, so you will be exchanging comfortable chairs… You’d rather stay in here? Stay where we’re at? Okay. Alright, on that part we’ll settle that. Uh, Brother Neal suggested we go ahead and get the preliminaries done. Uh, I’ve got the Cyclopedic Index of Assembly Minutes. It’s almost 600 pages, and it just goes through 1974. I have all the other rulings from ’74 to present here. I don’t know all of these rulings and procedures. If I do something wrong I want you to let me know right away. Uh, correct me when I need to be corrected, uh, so we can go the right direction with this. Uh, Brother, uh, Neal suggested that we should consider, uh, whatever preliminaries before we, uh—we do know that we have something on the agenda in a little bit here, that we would discuss bringing Brother Nabors over to read this, uh, uh, committee report. And we’re not going to forget that as our first, uh, uh, or just in a little bit here. But, uh, let, let’s talk about what we need to do to get established to, uh, if there’s any points of order we need to deal with at this time. We have already established earlier that we are going to operate by the Assembly guidelines as much as we possibly, possibly can here. But there may be some special points we need to consider. Alright, if, if there is not, uh, as far as I know then that our next order of business then would be to, uh, consider Brother, uh—I’m sorry, Brother Grant. Is there something?
Grant: Yeah, uh, Mike Grant. Just so that we can get on the record, if you have something that you need to say or want to say, please come to the microphone. And Brother Dupre was saying something earlier about the, one of the previous times they were selecting General Overseer that one of the things they agreed to do was not start dropping names. I don’t know how we’d handle that, but, Brother Smith…
S. Smith: I suppose when we get to that point we’ll discuss first, uh, if there’s any particular procedures we need to consider, uh, for addressing that. As far as I know now, we have a, agreed to, uh, allow Brother Lester, uh, to make a motion to allow Brother Nabors to come over and read the report of the Administrative Committee.
Lester: I don’t know that he’ll be reading a report of the Administrative Committee. I, I do not know what he had in that to read. But I do feel that as his job as the Administrative Assistant to the General Overseer, that we needed to hear some words. And Brother Nainggolan talked to me today about that, and he feels that we should be able to hear what he has to say. So I would make a motion that we bring Brother Nabors in as soon as possible.
Aviles: If somebody will make the second motion.
S. Smith: Yes, we need a second on that.
Grant: Mike Grant. I’ll second that motion.
S. Smith: Alright, uh, are there any opposed? Alright, if there are, uh, none that are opposed…
Horne: Can I have a clarification?
S. Smith: Okay, we’ve asked a question…
Horne: How long are we bringing Brother Nabors in? For the duration of the meeting, or just for a period?
S. Smith: My understanding is we would be bringing him over here to, uh, to share just momentarily to share something with us.
Lester: (not at microphone) Then he will leave.
S. Smith: Then he will leave, Brother Lester says. Uh, do we know if he is nearby?
Lester: (not at microphone) I can find out.
S. Smith: Alright, we may have to, we may need to take a break until he can be found, so let’s see if we can discover where he’s at.
Lester: (not at microphone) We might have to…bring him over in the morning or something.
S. Smith: Yeah, if we cannot get him then we will cease until we can do that. Okay, since there was none that expressed opposition, is that correct? Alright.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Brother Smith?
S. Smith: Yes, sir?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Do I need to come there?
S. Smith: Yes. Yes, you need to come to the mike to ask a question or make a comment.
D. Smith: I was under the impression that yesterday—Dewayne Smith—I was under the impression that he was going to read the report from the Administrative Committee meeting, so if that’s not the case, I would feel like that you, as moderator, would need to know what’s going to be presented.
S. Smith: I think it would be good to have our clerk, uh, check the records and see what we had agreed, exactly, to do yesterday. I thought that our agreement was to allow him to come over and read the report of the Administrative Committee. But I may be mistaken. So, we’re still not settled then at this moment for him to come in. Were, were you in opposition, or were you just asking a question?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) I, I would like for you to find out what, what he’s done there, you need to know that as moderator…
S. Smith: So you are in opposition until that’s, that’s done? Alright, uh, well, let’s see what the, what the minutes—I think that would be good to see exactly how…
Horne: Sorry (laughs). When was that done? Please be patient, I have 33 pages so far. When was the break, at what time?
(Brother Lester re-enters the building)
Lester: (not at microphone) He said he’d try to be here in about 30 minutes.
S. Smith: Alright, Brother Lester, we’ve had a question come up here as to what we actually agreed to and we’re going to have that read from the minutes.
Horne: (not at microphone) “We need to clear the building…”
S. Smith: Why don’t, why don’t you, maybe you should come to a mike and read that somehow for us.
Aviles: Maybe you could just hand him a microphone…
Horne: I think this is it. Okay, I, I believe that we’re in the right section now. Uh, Brother Lester spoke, uh, that we could clear the building, uh, but that we were to ask Brother Nabors back after a moderator is selected. I do, I don’t see the, uh, that it was stated. Okay, let me read this also. Brother Lester, in response to Brother Dupre, “I can be in favor, provided that after we pick a moderator and secretary, we can bring Brother Nabors back in. I have only tried to fulfill Brother Pruitt’s request and keep order. Men are instructed to be polite,” that regarding to the guards outside, uh, “Anyone will be asked to leave politely three times, not to put a hand on anyone. Let us pray and break, come back and pick a moderator and secretary, and let Brother Nabors come back and speak.”
S. Smith: Alright, unless there’s something further that, uh, that is not in those records that would be on the tape, then that’s where we’re at, Brother Smith.
Aviles: Would I be, would I be out of order if I were to ask why, uh, would anybody be opposed of, of reading the minutes?
S. Smith: I think, uh, I don’t think there’s a problem, unless I’m mistaken, with reading the minutes of that Administrative Committee. There may be a concern that he would read something that might have influence on the Presbytery’s decisions. And the Pres-, and the Presbytery is uh, needs to be careful about—not, not Brother Nabors—but about anyone who would come in and might say something that would help steer or, or influence a decision. Am I mistaken, or, or is it something…
Horne: (not at microphone) Can I make a statement?
S. Smith: Yes.
Lester: (not at microphone) Now, do you want him to come or not? He’s getting ready…not much time…
S. Smith: (not at microphone) …let’s see what…
Lester: (not at microphone) Well…
Horne: Uh, I, I’m not sure if we, uh, have complete understanding. Uh, it was my understanding that Brother Nabors would come and read the Administrative Committee report. Or at least that’s what I was placed under that impression. I, I don’t know. But I would like to suggest that since it’s an Administrative Committee, if that is what he is going to read, that rather than just invite Brother Lester—or Brother Nabors—that we invite all of the Administrative Committee, uh, to come and present that to us. I feel that would be the best way, if that’s what he is going to read.
Lester: I really don’t know what he’s going to read. I haven’t seen it. I do know that he had an opening statement to make to you’s about Brother Pruitt… I don’t know what that is either. That’s all I know. I’ll call him back.
S. Smith: May, maybe I could make a suggestion here. Uh, could we go back on the, uh, recordings, and listen and be precise as to what we agreed to do. And if, and if what we agreed to was to hear that Committee report, Brother Smith has suggested that if there’s anything more than that that I should see it first to see if it’s appropriate. At the very least, I think we need to, uh, let’s see what we agreed to. Does that sound satisfactory? I think if we’re going to keep confusion down we’d better find out what we agreed to do.
Grant: (not at microphone) I don’t know how long it will take me to find that. I might have to listen to an hour…
Horne: (not at microphone) I, I can access it real quick.
Lester: (not at microphone) …come in tomorrow, when he’s at the office...
Estep: Can I make a suggestion, brother?
S. Smith: Yes, brother. We need a suggestion.
Estep: Donald Estep, Kentucky/Southern Illinois. I’d like to suggest that we adjourn for the evening and pray. Let the moderator meet with Brother Nabors. And since the other brethren will be here in the morning anyway…that way it will take us some time to find them and, and…so why couldn’t we do that? If you meet with them—with Brother Nabors, I mean.
S. Smith: Does that sound satisfactory? Does anyone object to that? Now, we have a, let’s remember we do have a motion on the floor, though, to bring him in, and when we start tomorrow we need to proceed with that. We have a motion, we have a second, and we had an opposition until we got clear on what we agreed to do. So, we will start there tomorrow at 9:00. Yes, Brother Dupre.
Dupre: As Brother Estep has suggested, could we amend the motion in a way that would give the moderator a chance to meet with Brother Nabors? And, and then, uh, once he’s done that, we’ll, you know, bring him on in…maybe I fell asleep momentarily, I have those spells (laughs). Uh, according to the motion that we had, it was just to bring him in and now that we’ve added the idea of meeting with him, that the moderator could, uh, talk with him to see what’s there.
S. Smith: (not at microphone) That was Brother Estep’s suggestion.
Dupre: If the motion could be amended. Was you amending it, Brother Estep?
Estep: (not at microphone) No, I was just making a suggestion.
Grant: (not at microphone) Can we just leave it as it is? We know we’re going to bring him in and Brother Smith could work out all the details…
S. Smith: Well, I, I, I’m trying to… Okay, what, we will dismiss, and I will try to make arrangements to meet with him this evening. Okay. Everyone satisfied with that? 9:00 tomorrow morning. Excuse me, one moment, we have a question.
Hernandez: I want a clarification. Uh, is the whole committee going to be here tomorrow?
S. Smith: Uh, we don’t know that yet. We don’t know that yet. We can decide that, I guess, in the morning. That was suggested, but we’ll decide that tomorrow, if that’s alright. Let, let’s stand and pray, and we’ll dismiss with this prayer.
Prayer
Adjourned at 4:22pm
9:03am
S. Smith: God bless you this morning. I’ve had so much happen, I wasn’t able to get with someone and see if someone could lead us in a few songs. So when we have our opening prayer, uh, you might think about that. Uh, maybe a chorus that, uh, is generally known among the nations that everyone can sing. But I feel like we should have prayer, have a scripture reading, uh, and sing and worship our Savior. I’ve had a number of things brought to my attention this morning concerning activities that are happening outside this meeting. Uh, there’s a desire to bring those things up in discussion in here. If we bring up all those things that are going on out there, we could spend a great deal of time concerning ourselves with what people beyond this Presbytery are doing. We know there are some people out there doing what they shouldn’t do, saying what they shouldn’t say, and somehow we’ve got to dismiss that from our minds. Not allow it to affect our thinking and distract us from our responsibility. I don’t want to spend all day today talking about things we don’t have to talk about, if we can avoid it. So, let’s just, uh, as we go to the Lord in prayer, ask God to give us wisdom, and to know what to say and what not to say. The Assembly’s just given us one thing to do at this point. This is our job. Find someone to serve as General Overseer. In spite of things that I have heard, that operates out there, even mistakes that some of us may be making in here, I, I believe that through prayer and yielding myself to the Holy Ghost, all that can be cleansed away, and I can do what I’m supposed to do for God here. And I believe you can, too. I’d like to read Galatians 5, beginning in verse 22, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love…”
Aviles: Go ahead.
S. Smith: “Joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness…” Brethren, let’s remember these words. Gentleness. I’m, I’m reading, uh, Galatians 5, verse, uh, beginning in verse 22. I might have said 19, did I? Verse 22. “But the fruit of the Spirit,” I’m sorry, “is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Does that sound good to you today? I believe it would be good for us to go on our knees, and as we do, let’s ask God to cleanse our hearts, our minds of anything that would distract us, anything that would hinder us, anything that would not be edifying. Let’s go on our knees.
(Prayer: 9:09am—9:18am)
S. Smith: Has someone got a song on your heart you could lead us in and help us worship the Lord a little bit. Don’t hesitate.
Voices: At the cross, at the cross. (Singing) “At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light.” You know that song?
Aviles: I’m not going to interpret that one, brother.
S. Smith: Is there something that we can all sing, that we know, that you feel?
Voice: (Singing) “Oh, the blood of Jesus.” “There is power, power, power…”
S. Smith: (Singing) “There is power”—now, I can’t carry a tune—don’t put me on the spot. Brother Dewayne Smith, you can sing, you could lead that out. Wonderful working power—is that the one?—in the blood. Let’s stand and, yeah, that’ll… Folks, we’re doing all this to get our hearts in tune with God, so let’s just let the Spirit help us do that.
(Brother D. Smith led the Presbytery in singing, “There is Power in the Blood” and “When the Church of God Arises,” then Brother Luna led the brothers in Spanish)
S. Smith: Amen. Uh, let me make mention of a few more things here. First, is there a, a tablet that’s not being used yet, uh, that, that’s available? It would be good if we, I think, if we could get a register of those who are in attendance. To just, uh, pass it around and have you sign your name, and write, uh, what state, region, or nation that you’re the Overseer of. And this is just to have a written verification, uh, that we are in attendance. Uh, so if someone could, uh, provide some pages or some kind of tablet, we’ll see if we can get that done. I’d like to make also, a notation that Brother Carr, who began with us, uh, left due to needing to go to a funeral—and he is back this morning. Alright, thank you. Well, alright then, that was the second record, we were going to record that, uh, what time he came back to rejoin us. We welcome you back and, uh, our sympathies are with you and your loved ones, brother. Um, as far as I know, the only Overseer who is not here with us is Brother, uh, Manuel Castro. I believe he is the Overseer of, uh, Guatemala, is that correct?
Aviles: Nicaragua. Nicaragua?
S. Smith: Nicaragua? Is that…?
Voice: Guatemala and…
S. Smith: Okay. Thank you very much. And he was unable to attend. I wanted to make that notation. Uh, as far as I know, all of the other Overseers are here with us. Uh, I do want to give, uh, a kind admonishment here. I have been told that there are things on the internet concerning our meeting here. Um, one of those things is accurate, uh, some of those things are terribly inaccurate. But we did agree that we would, uh, uh, keep what we are doing here between us until our meeting is over. I, I know there’s no intentional harm done, but sometimes we will tell someone and say, “Now, keep this in confidence.” And then they’ll tell a friend and say, “But now, you’ve got to keep this in confidence.” And pretty soon, someone doesn’t keep it in confidence. So, let’s try to be very careful about that. We don’t want to disturb our people out there who are praying and seeking the Lord. Uh, they can get false information and are praying about something that didn’t even happen. And we want their minds to be clear to, to follow the Lord. I have had a few ask me if they could address us this morning. I have discovered that a little bit of what I have been told seems to be inaccurate, so if you feel you need to address us, uh, don’t tell us about a rumor that you’ve heard second or third or forth hand. If, if it is imperative to our operation here, and if you can say it in a way that will be edifying to us, uh, then, uh, I would welcome you to, to share that. If it will help us. Brother Forbes? Come forward to the mike, please.
Forbes: George C. Forbes. Um, I would like to make a motion that the, uh, information that we would be receiving from the committee this morning would be for information purpose only. That no question asked, and, uh, for unity and peace and love, that we go on and do what we’ve come here to do.
(Laughter)
S. Smith: Uh, I’m hoping we can get a few of our microphones over here. If we could get one at the end of each table, you wouldn’t have so far to go. And I won’t have to keep raising and lowering this one. Uh, at this moment, we already have a motion on the floor. Uh, we have had a second to that motion, and we have had…
Voice: (not at microphone) Have we had a second?
Horne: (not at microphone) We already have a motion from yesterday that needs to be addressed before any other motions can be…
S. Smith: Yeah, that’s what I was stating.
Horne: (not at microphone) Okay.
S. Smith: I did go back and listen to the, uh, uh, tape recording last night. We had ended with a motion and a second to allow Brother Nabors to come in, uh, and then we had an opposition until we, uh, an opposition with that. Um, and we ended there and, and said we would start at this point when we came back. The request that was made, and I want to apologize to Brother Lester because he had gone out the door when this opposition in question arose and he was unaware of it. And he felt like we had already, uh, got to the point that there was, that it was settled that there was no opposition. After he had gone out the door, I said something to the effect, uh, “We are settled then that there is no opposition.” And that’s when Brother Smith arose and, uh, requested that I meet with Brother Nabors, because he felt the moderator should know what’s going to be presented. And we agreed to that, uh, and then we dismissed. Uh, I did talk with Brother Nabors and he informed me what he had, uh, intended to share with the Presbytery. Uh, before I go any farther, uh, are you satisfied with my explanation of what we did yesterday? Brother Lester.
Lester: (not at microphone) I am not satisfied.
S. Smith: Come to the mike, please, brother.
Lester: When I come—Ralph Lester, Tennessee—when I come back in, I was not aware of what was going on. When I went out I, brother, I asked Brother Smith…call Brother Nabors and see how quick he could get here. Now, when I come back, and I stayed in here until the question was asked, “Is any opposed?” It was asked a second time, if I remember correctly. Nobody stood. I went out the door and talked to Brother Nabors. He said, “I’ll do my best to be there in 30 minutes.” When I come back in, I asked you, Brother Smith…to one side, I said, “What’s going on?” Now, you said everybody was in agreement. I, I, I did not know what was going on, so how could I be in agreement? This is what I’m saying, I, I was not informed… I heard it from you after we dismissed… When we were standing right, I was standing there and you was standing there and Brother Horne was standing there, and you were looking, you wanted to find out what I had said the day before. And I made the statement, and I’ll make it again, why are we splitting hairs? Now, I don’t understand some of this, but I cannot justly say that I agreed with what was doing. Now, as far as Brother Nabors goes, I talked to him last night, and he, he told me what he had intended to read. Now, he didn’t tell me what, but he told me the essence of it, that he was going to read the 43rd, uh, annual conference to pick up the General Overseer from beginning to end. Now, I know that there’s been mention made of different things in that ’43 Assembly…I mean the meeting… but the whole entirety of the mi-, uh, the minutes have not been read. So I’m still, I, I can’t say that I agree with what was discussed after I went out the door…I did what you told me to do.
S. Smith: Uh, Brother Lester, I don’t know what to do except to ask you to forgive me.
Lester: (not at microphone) I have nothing against you about it, I just said I couldn’t be in agreement.
S. Smith: It was a mistake on my part, and I apologize to Brother Lester and to this entire Presbytery. And, brethren, if you catch me in a mistake, correct me—please correct me as quickly as you can, because I don’t want to grieve this Presbytery or do anything that would, uh, would hurt anybody. By the way, uh, I do need to request of you once again, each time you come to the mike, just give us your name. Each time, just give us your name and then you can proceed.
Neal: Carl Jr. Neal. Uh, just a clarification. I, I think that as we left it yesterday, we voted that, and agreed that Brother Nabors should come back and, and read that report, whatever the report was. But then, while Brother, uh, Lester was out making a phone call, Brother Horne suggested that the whole committee be here. Now, that’s the way I remember it…and we agreed on that. If anybody else remembers it any different…
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos. Uh, Brother Moderator and Presbytery, if I remember correct, um, I believe, uh, Brother Horne made a recommendation, if I’m, if I’m mistaken, but we didn’t agree upon having the whole committee, uh, be present…
Horne: (not at microphone) Can I clarify, I did not…
Aviles: Come to the, come to the mike.
Horne: I didn’t make a recommendation, I just made a statement.
S. Smith: Okay… Do you mind if he speaks first? Alright, we’ll have this one.
Pimentel: God bless you, brethren. Uh, Juan Pimentel. God bless you, Brother Smith. God bless our secretary. And God bless every single one of us that’s here today. I want to say something, brethren. I want to know, what is wrong that my brother, that Brother Nabors comes, uh, that Brother Nabors comes and shares information with the ministry? I believe that, that none of us here, if none of us have a, a problem that will effect us, whatever, uh, information he has, we should in, in, in freedom and liberty, uh, be in unity to listen to, and hear the information that he has. This is what I think. God bless you.
S. Smith: I, I, I think, I think—did, are you wanting to wait, Brother Lester?
Lester: (not at microphone) …
S. Smith: Okay. Brother Acosta.
Acosta: God bless you brethren, I am Donaldo Acosta. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s sad to make such a transaction, a brutish transaction. Uh, this morning as I was crying to the Lord, I felt like it was a very special moment. It was the moment that, that, God’s moment. I think it’s, that it’s time that we get rid of that at-, uh, attitude. I feel like we’re looking more at man than, than, than to Jesus and, and what He has. Please, we are men of, uh, spirituality. I believe that it’s, it’s, it’s a rebellious spirit. And, and, and those that, that have that rebellious spirit, they’re only taking care of their own interests. Not only should we look to that man and that little group of men that, that, that…but, uh, we need to look at all the saints that are in the Church. Please, let go of that attitude. I don’t know if I should stay here or leave. We have suffered with these people because we see there is people scratching each other and doing their own thing. And we leave this place and we try not to talk about the things that are going on in this place. Please, let’s return back to being the men that God has chosen to do the work. Let’s return to that spirit. I ask Brother Lester to leave that, that at, attitude. Sirs, I believe that, that, that there’s people here that don’t have nothing against anybody. I understand the business. It’s the moderator that we have chosen, the one that has to read the recommendations. It’s the, the, the moderator that has to read the, the minutes or the recommendations…from the General Overseer. We, we, we, we cannot harm this Presbytery. But I’m not looking at the, at the, at the attitude that we should… I have been crying back there by that table on my knees, because I thought that we were already just waiting for the blessings of God to flow. That we were concentrated on, on… I’m not looking at Brother Jerry. I’m not looking at Brother Smith. I’m looking at Christ and His Church. I don’t want you to talk to me. I don’t want you to talk to me. I want to hear the voice of God. I want to hear the voice of the Lord. God bless you.
Lester: Ralph Lester. I appreciate Brother Acosta’s statement, but I do not have an attitude. But I want you to understand that Brother Dupre said yesterday he had to answer to his constituents back in North Carolina. I have to answer to mine also. But first and foremost I have to answer to God. Now, I’ve asked Brother Smith to let me speak from my heart this morning. There, and I told him there’d be no names, but I simply want you to know my heart. Back in about ’88, there was a movement on to remove our General Overseer. I want to go back to something else first. You people in the, South and Central America, and Africa, India and Indonesia, you are growing much faster than in the United States. Is that right? (Amens) Okay. Why are you growing? Because you’re not at odds with one another. But what is going—and I, I have to tell the truth—what is going on in the United States is people trying to undermine each other. Now, don’t, and I know some of you shake your heads. I’m not, I didn’t come over on the boat yesterday. But, there was a movement on back in ’88, when M. A. Tomlinson was Overseer, and it might have started a little before that. But that’s when Brother M. A. Tomlinson talked to me. And he told me that if certain brethren were still alive, that he wouldn’t even have a meeting with some of these fellows that had come in. Now, back a, after the Assembly of 2005, there was a movement on that Brother Pruitt needed to resign. Now, I was with Brother Pruitt pert near every day except when I was out of the city. I haul—because of Brother Pruitt’s eyesight, he had surgery on it—he was not able to really drive efficiently, and he asked me to drive him. He talked to me many times. And he said, “I can’t wait to get back into the office.” He also said that this would be the final conflict. Now, that’s what he told me… What you need to understand today, that Brother Pruitt, on May the 11th, after a letter was put out onto the internet about his, about his health. That was one man’s opinion. But I talked to Brother Pruitt every day. And his mind was clear. Now, when people say that he didn’t know what he was doing in 2005 at the Assembly, how strong was he when he read his annual address? He was stronger this last year than he was the year before. I’m simply—and people have said that Brother Nabors needs to be removed. That, I have a letter in my briefcase to that effect. Brother Dupre—uh, Brother Pruitt appointed him. And he’s the same as you and I are today, he’s still under appointment. So, I’m just telling you that Brother Nabors is under appointment the same as you and I. And I, I want you to understand I have no animosity against anyone… And I appreciate what you said, Brother Acosta. But I don’t have an attitude. I simply want the truth out. God bless you.
S. Smith: Uh, before Brother Smith speaks, I’d like to say a word. Brother Acosta, and all of our Spanish brethren, please don’t let the devil tempt you to leave us. You’re a part of the body of Christ. We need you. When we have problems in the United States, it’s not a United States problem. It’s a problem in the body of Christ. And when one member suffers, all the members suffer. And we need your prayers and support more than ever. Sometimes, sometimes problems are in other nations. Just a few years ago, a problem arose and we lost a very large number of people in a nation other than the United States. Problems tend to move around in the body of Christ. The devil, the devil will cause them to surface wherever he can. But when they surface, we love one another. We pray for one another. And we help one another work our way through those things. We love you. And we need you to stay with us to the end. Hallelujah. Glory, glory, glory to God. Thank you, Jesus.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith. I believe it was, uh, agreed at the beginning of this meeting that our business would be conducted as though we are in a business conference. When we’re in a business conference, if anyone comes to the floor, the moderator has a right to know what they’re presenting. And I do respect the appointment… But I do also know Brother Nabors is not part of the Presbytery. I have no problem with him coming in…if you agree to what he’s presenting, that’s the way I… But pastoring almost 30 years, if any male member had any business, as pastor I would like to know before time. It’s just good business. So, if you’re satisfied with what he’s presenting, then I’m satisfied.
Horne: Uh, James Horne. I would like to say that I, I would like to hear what Brother Nabors has to present. Uh, my intention yesterday was not, uh, not in any way to not have him speak. I feel like we need to have every bit of information we need to make the right decisions. That’s why we’re here. Amen? But I just felt yesterday in my comment, that if he was going to present something from the Administrative Committee, that we should have the Administrative Committee come. And I disagree with, uh, not being able to ask questions because that’s why we’re here. We should be able to ask questions. We should have liberty as Presbytery to call anybody in here that we need and have the information that we need to make the right decisions and to hear from the Lord. So for that, if anyone misconstrued what I was saying yesterday, I do want to apologize. My intent was, uh, much better than that, I assure you.
Coronel: Juan Coronel. I feel like we don’t have a problem with Brother Nabors coming, uh, when the moderator is in agreement. Uh, he is the only one that should know what he’s going to talk about. Also would like to, uh, I would like, uh, that there would be two other people from the committee, because that day that Brother Pruitt came into the office, I was here in the office, and all three of them came in, or went in. And I, I believe that is correct, uh, that we need to respect the other two people that were with him. Uh, I believe that we have seen the work that these, uh, three brethren have done. I have worked with all three and I, uh, no one in particular, uh, in, in the work that they have in that they have in the program. I would like for all three to come if the Presbytery is in, in, in agreement, and if the moderator is in agreement. And he’s the only one that knows what the mod-, or what Brother Nabors is going to say. If this is for the Presbytery to continue, I don’t think it’s a problem for us to listen.
Aviles: Can I ask a question? (Spanish dialog) I asked Brother Juan if he was in, in, in agreement with us having questions asked. And he said yes.
Voice: (not at microphone) There’s four on the committee, not three.
S. Smith: That is correct.
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Is that a motion?
Horne: We can’t have a motion.
Aviles: Can we have a motion?
S. Smith: That, uh, well…
Horne: We have a motion on the floor.
S. Smith: Uh, we have a motion that’s on the floor that, uh, there had been some opposition to and we need to get that opposition removed. But, uh, let me share the difficulty here… Uh, I had another member, uh, of, another General Headquarters appointee, uh, had suggested to me that, uh, that person be allowed to come. And, in fact, that all of the General Auxiliary leaders be allowed to come, uh, that they might be able to share valuable information to us. And I shared with him that the language of the, uh, General Assembly recommendation simply said the Presbytery will meet. You can see the confusion that will come if we start opening for a lot of people to come in here. So, we have to be careful about that. At the same time, I think every one of us are interested, uh, especially in hearing what Brother Pruitt said to that committee. I think to be fair to you, uh, I need to share with you what Brother Nabors told me that he had planned to present when he first approached us. He shared this with me, and then he said, “Brother Smith, uh, I can come if ya’ll want me to come. I don’t have to come if you don’t want me to come.” And he indicated he would share any part of this—you know, whatever, whatever that we desired—that’s what he would share with us. He said his, uh, intentions were to read the minutes, uh, of the 1943 Presbytery meeting. Uh, that he had intended to share the Administrative Committee report. Uh, that he had intended to share the last two paragraphs, approximately the last two paragraphs, of Brother Pruitt’s farewell address in the newest Evening Light. And then he said he might, uh, have some, as he put it, off the cuff remarks that might come to him while he shares this. Uh, so that is what he had originally intended to do. Now, I realize we could get into something that could take hours of time. I, I don’t think we want to get bogged down with something extremely lengthy here. But we do, we do want to get information that’s valuable to us. So, do you have any suggestions before we proceed here from this?
Dupre: Ray Dupre. Uh, my suggestion, brethren, would be, uh, based on what Brother Smith has just said, some of the information that was desired to be shared we have access to. Such as the 1943, uh, written minutes that we could, uh, I mean, we could share among ourselves. And maybe if we could cut that agenda out—that part of the agenda out—it could spare some time, since we do have access to it. And, and I’m just speaking in reference to the time element. We, we would be capable, I have a copy of the ’43 minutes, Brother, uh, Smith has the written record of the ’43 minutes in the book itself, and some of you may have it. I think maybe Brother Neal has it. And we, we would be glad, you know, among ourselves to share that and maybe that would cut some of the length of the time element out. Uh, and maybe just get to the heart of the things that we don’t have, uh, and that may help us with the time element. That’s, that’s the only thing I wanted to address.
S. Smith: Uh, I might offer a suggestion to you. Uh, what we do need from Brother Nabors is that information that we don’t have access to other… Uh, if you would like me to read the 1943 minutes, I’ll be happy to do that. If I do so, I’d like to do it without comment. And the reason for that, I, I read through it this morning. Many different thoughts come up, uh, such as, uh, following a pattern of Moses and Joshua, following the pattern of how David was selected to be king, other comments and activities involved which, as a big picture, helps us see how sincerely they were seeking the Spirit and the Word of God to find direction. But I would not want to stop, myself, and talk about a particular thing because it would seem that I’m trying to steer us to go after that particular part of that meeting. But after I read that meeting, the account of that meeting, uh, you’re certainly welcome to discuss that and draw from that whatever we can that will help us in this meeting. Uh, how many of you have not read Brother Pruitt’s farewell address? You have not read it? Okay, we have quite a few that have not. And, uh, uh, we’d be very happy if we could—I say I read, we can have someone read—these, these two things. Uh, the only other thing, then, was that Administrative Committee report. We’ve had those suggest that the entire committee come over for the reading of the report. Is there any reason we wouldn’t want them—they were all present when Brother Pruitt made his statement to them. Does anyone object to having them all come? You know, um, a few days ago—it might have been yesterday—someone said, “Going once, going twice.” That’s, that’s what I’m trying to do. I don’t want to end something so quick that I’ve overlooked somebody, so… Alright.
Estep: Donald Estep. Brother Moderator, I appreciate a moment of time. We have gone from, uh, reading the minutes of ’43…a couple of paragraphs in Brother Pruitt’s ad-, uh, final address, the Administrative Committee report, down, down to just to the Administrative Committee report. I personally see nothing wrong with the reading, him reading a couple of paragraphs. He was Brother Pruitt’s personal assistant. And I see nothing wrong with him reading that. And I’m sorry, if I am wrong, I apologize and ask for forgiveness. But I would like to see Brother, uh, Nabors read this, uh, at least the, uh, the couple of, of paragraphs of the farewell address. And again I, I don’t want to make any suggestions or accusations. It seems like we are awful, awfully afraid of a brother in Christ. I know he’s not a part of the Presbytery. And I don’t understand us having such a fear of what one man might do to us. We are…we have a moderator now. And if anyone gets out of order, if I, if I’m, uh, have a misunderstanding here, then correct me. As the moderator, you would have the right to stop that, whether that be me, or anyone else here, or anyone that we invite. So, let’s show some trust in a brother in Christ. If we have re, reason to believe that he would harm us, then perhaps we ought to get him in and pray for him. I don’t mean that facetiously or any other way, but he is a brother in Christ, and he is under appointment, general appointment, and we should at least give him some, uh, honor. And I really do thank you for your time. God bless you…
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Estep. Uh, I might mention, some of you may be wondering why we’re referring to the last few paragraphs instead of the entire message, uh, that Brother Pruitt has given us. I suspect the reason for that is, is that the last two paragraphs, uh, explain, uh, his vacating the office of General Overseer. I personally have no objection to allowing him to read the, uh, the minutes of the, uh, Administrative Committeemen, and the Evening Light, uh, those few paragraphs as well. I just want everybody to be pleased, that we’re satisfied with what we’re doing. I don’t want to do anything incorrect. If we’re satisfied with this then I will, uh, take a break, and have Brother Nabors to come over. Hopefully he’ll be free here in about, uh, let’s, we can make, uh, perhaps a 20 minute break and do that. Excuse me, Brother Smith?
D. Smith: …the whole committee?
S. Smith: I, I’m sorry, I, I neglected. Uh, we did discuss, uh, whether or not to bring the whole committee, was there? There was no objection to bringing the entire committee over was there?
Lester: Ralph Lester. On, uh, last Saturday, there was nothing mentioned about the Executive Committee, just that Brother Nabors couldn’t be here. Now, we agreed then, today…that we would allow Brother Nabors to come. Now, you said to save time, but if we bring them all over here it’s going to take a lot more time.
S. Smith: Um, the intent was not to engage all of them in conversation, but simply to have them standing here as a committee, uh, while he read that report. I think that would be appropriate. Alright, if that’s satisfactory we’ll just let them all come in. I think it would be an honorary thing for them as well, for them to, uh, stand behind him as he reads that.
Horne: Uh, if there is a question, can we, uh, can someone from the Presbytery ask them if, if something comes up, if someone has a point in question that they would like to ask to any of the committee?
S. Smith: Alright. Uh, uh, if you have a question, uh, I would permit you to ask that question. But I do want to ask you, uh, let’s keep the dialogue on this down as much as possible. We’re wanting information that’s going to help us do our job. So let’s not, if we can avoid it, let’s try not to carry that for an extended period. Alright, we’ll dismiss and we’ll begin again at 10:40 if we can get…
Adjourned at 10:20am
10:58am
S. Smith: I apologize for being late. Uh, Brother Nabors will be here in just a minute. The other committeemen are, are waiting. I see him, uh, on his way from the offices. Brother Neal has offered to make a comment before uh, he comes in.
Neal: Brother Neal. Uh, brethren, uh, I made a statement, uh, the other morning and I would like to beg your forgiveness…that, uh, I didn’t mean it the way it sounded. It was on the position of voting. At no time have, uh, have I ever been anywhere or in any church, uh, meeting where votes have taken place….
Neal: And for the lack of better words as an excuse—and there is no excuse—I beg your forgiveness. I love the Church, I love the government of the Church, and I understand the operating of the Holy Ghost in this meeting and I just beg your forgiveness for this statement. It was just totally wrong. Thank you.
S. Smith: As we proceed, let’s remember we have a voice, not a vote. Uh, they’re out in the hot sun, so I’m going to bring them in and we’ll have prayer then we’ll allow Brother Nabors to address us, if we’re ready. Alright.
(Administrative Committee enters)
S. Smith: In behalf of the Presbytery, I want to welcome the Administrative Committee. And, uh, we appreciate the work that they’ve done, uh, throughout the years for the Church, and certainly the last 30 days that have been pretty difficult for all of us, no doubt have been pretty challenging for them, too. And I think it would be good for us just to, uh, give them a warm welcome here.
(Applause)
S. Smith: I would like us to have a prayer, and uh, and after this prayer, uh, Brother Nabors will be free to share the minutes from their meeting, and to share those paragraphs from the General Overseer’s farewell address. Let’s open our hearts to the Lord.
(Prayer: 11:02am—11:04am)
Nabors: We give greetings, we give greetings to you again today. And, on behalf of the Committee, we appreciate your invitation to come, and we want to share with you, uh, many of you may not have received this, uh, June issue of the Evening Light yet, but, uh, Bishop Pruitt made his final farewell address, or statement, in this Evening Light. And as, uh, Brother Smith has already stated, we will read the last few paragraphs of this statement. This statement actually, this statement came after our meeting that we had, but I would like to read it first. And Brother Pruitt had just, uh, put a scripture in from Ephesians, chapter 4, verses 13, 15, and 16. Then he states, then Bishop Pruitt states…
Aviles: …I’ll just try to translate it as, as best as I can.
Nabors: “There were many first century church leaders, such as Peter and Paul, who never saw the completion of the spiritual house which they wrote about under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, but God in His infinite wisdom, moved upon our spiritual leaders who would take up the great work where these left off. The Church work continued to thrive as each one did their part in fulfilling the responsibility which had fallen upon them. But these men never saw the completion of the spiritual building. Centuries and millennia have passed and generations who have dedicated their lives to this process have come and gone, yet the construction is still underway as each generation continues laboring in order for the work to be completed. Many of you are now aware of my health problems. I have come to the conclusion of my own volition that it is not feasible for me to continue in my position in my present state of health. Doing so would not serve the Church well. Therefore, I have declared the position of General Overseer of The Church of God vacant. I have met with the Administrative Committee to inform them of my decision, and consequently a Presbytery meeting has been set for June 10th 2006 to deliberate the selection of the next General Overseer of the Church. I am profoundly grateful, first of all, to God for allowing me to serve in such an honored position. Though it is one I did not seek. I am also grateful for the companionship and support of my loving wife, Norma, as well as the understanding and support of my family. I am deeply indebted to all those who have served with me in General Headquarters, State and National Overseers, ministers and members of The Church of God for your love, dedication, and hard work in building up the Church and extending the kingdom of God. May God richly reward each of you. ‘Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord’ (1 Corinthians 15:58). For Christ and The Church of God, Robert J. Pruitt.” I appreciate our General Overseer’s statement… I think all of us would say that he served The Church of God well, amen? Let me preface the reading of the Administrative Committee meeting in that these are not signed minutes. It is normal that these minutes would not be signed until our next Administrative Committee meeting. These rough draft minutes were handed out to the committee. Uh, one on the committee offered suggestions for some slight, uh, input, and that was given and incorporated in these minutes. Two of the committeemen, uh, have not submitted any corrections to these minutes. In, in a recent meeting of us together—not an official meeting—it was stated if they had corrections or input, we were to receive them by this last Friday. Liberty was also given that they could present their minutes to the next General Overseer at our next Administrative Committee meeting. I normally do not take minutes in these meetings. It just happened that this is the way it went that day. All of us have said together, we wish we had had a tape recorder in that meeting. We did not know, uh, Bishop Pruitt’s intentions to retire that day. Had we known that, we would’ve been better prepared. And in speaking with Bishop Pruitt, he did not know he was going to retire that day until he was about half way through that meeting. I will now read the minutes. “Administrative Committee Meeting, May the 11th 2006. Attending: Robert J. Pruitt, James C. Nabors, Walter G. Lofton, Herman D. Ard, Kevin D. Werkheiser.” Now, as I read these, there is not any disrespect intended when I don’t say bishop or brother. I will just read what each brother said—I will call their last name and read what they, what the statements were. “Bishop Pruitt, uh, walked into the General Headquarters and called the meeting to order. Bishop Pruitt shared with this committee concerning some of his tests that he had undergone.” And I might add here that he did not know about the letter that came out on the internet until that morning. Only one family mem-, member knew about that letter until that morning. And the letter does not correspond with all that the doctor has given in his information. All right. “Bishop Pruitt shared with this committee concerning some of his tests. Brother Ard: ‘in reading the statement from the doctor,’” now, Brother Ard is speaking now. “‘The doctor has stated that he feels you are not able to make decisions. We need to proceed with what the General Assembly has said. We need to select a leader because of this situation. It would be more peaceful throughout the Church if you would vacate the office. Then the Presbytery could meet to choose a leader. People on the field will not accept you continuing since the release of this letter,’ speaking of the letter that came out on the internet. Pruitt’s response: ‘The wisdom of the world to analyze jobs and the reasoning required needs unity of reasoning and the spiritual side. What we are in is for the sake of fulfilling the search to fulfill perfection.’ Ard, replies: ‘Is anyone else going to speak?’ A period of silence. ‘The only thing, Brother Pruitt, is whenever this letter concerning your health hit the field, the State Overseers and pastors wants it resolved. If you felt you could step down or allow someone else in because of your health situation and because calls are coming in, it would, it would help the Church. We are in a crucial time and crossroads.’ Pruitt responds: ‘This is not a position that allows us to vote. It must be allowed by the Spirit of God. As it is, I feel unless I get healed from God I’d be better off in this position,’ in brackets: meaning retirement. ‘My doctor, Kemkar, has been approached by some,’” excuse me, “‘approached by some people and he told them that my ability would not at the present time allow a full load. He suggested that I should not be depended on to lead. He listed abilities that are required to do this work. But secular and spiritual work is very different. My wife is also having health problems. I’ve been out for her sickness also. I feel this is the only wife I have, and I am the only husband she has to take care of her. So it is expected of the husband.’ There was a pause. Brother Pruitt continues, ‘Over the last two years there has been a barrage of mission of love and prayers. Because of this, we saw her rise gracefully,’ speaking of Sister Pruitt. ‘The doctor is not involved in religious thoughts. He recommends not doing work from that standpoint alone. Unless we could get answers and see them demonstrated, I don’t feel that I can carry on the load that is required here. Having received your letter, what is your thoughts?,’ referring again to the letter that was on the internet. Brother Ard responds: ‘According to the medical information and advice, he is saying that you are not,’” excuse me, “‘ he is saying that you are unable to make decisions in this office. You cannot make decisions, so that is why the doctor says you are unable to perform your duties. He names the things that are plaguing you. The people on the field say, because of your physical situation, we need to call a Presbytery meeting to select a new General Overseer until the General Assembly. At the present time, according to the doctor, you are unable to do the work. When I received a call last night, I pulled up the information on the website. I feel it would be better to get a new General Overseer because I don’t want you to have another stroke.’ Brother Lofton responds: ‘All of us are having a hard time with this. What about our love and devotion for, for your leadership for the past 13 years? We respect you. Could you, for the sake of the Church, make it to the General Assembly? What about another year’s work? We desire to see the Church progress. We are at a crossroads. The first thing we want to see is for God to touch you. Sometimes God speaks through different circumstances. Do you think you could hold up under the stress and strain?’ Brother Pruitt responds: ‘I don’t feel like I could, under the current circumstances.’ Brother Werkheiser responds: ‘The letter we received talks about the decisions that you have been making. Many people are wondering about your decisions. Some have taken this too far, and others are genuinely concerned. If there was a question before, after viewing this letter from the doctor, it seems to be clear. It would be very difficult to have decisions made by a General Overseer that the doctor says is not able to do so, and it would be difficult to lead. Brother Lofton asked you if you can stand the stress, and I thank you for your response concerning this. The integrity of the Church is now in question. It’s not an easy decision. It’s not comfortable.’ Bishop Pruitt respond: ‘It is very obvious 8 or 9 weeks was valuable in helping my wife to get better. I have tried to be righteous in all of my affairs. Again, the doctor believes that I should not be making decisions.’ Nabors responds: ‘Your integrity is intact, Brother Pruitt.’ (Repeat for translator) ‘Brother Pruitt. You have the greatest respect in The Church of God. We are convinced that your health and your life are of the utmost importance. I’m different from Brother Ard. I have received no calls from State Overseers or pastors wanting you out. All who have called me have been totally concerned about your health.’ (Repeat for translator) ‘About your health. We want what is best for you. How do you feel? What do you think the Lord wants?’ Bishop Pruitt responds: ‘Well, I am weak in body. I don’t feel that I’m able to carry out the day in, day out responsibilities that this job requires. I am weak.’ Nabors responds: ‘Let me make sure that I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying, then, that you want the rest of the Administrative Committee to set a date for a Presbytery meeting, call the State and National Overseers, and select an Interim General Overseer,’ (repeat for translator), ‘until the General Assembly and let the General Assembly decide.’ Bishop Pruitt responds: ‘I don’t want to make a mistake. I don’t want to displease God. But I cannot make that schedule. Yes, that’s what I’m saying to you, Brother Nabors.’ Brother Lofton responds: ‘God will not put upon you—us more than we are able to bear. If you are not able to bear this stress and strain, then God is not putting this upon you.’ Nabors responds: ‘Brother Pruitt, I don’t think you would displease God. It’s like I talked with you about before concerning my father. The preacher was still there, but the body was too weak to go with the preacher. I feel the Lord will honor your decision. If that is your decision, I stand with you 100% on what you desire to do.’ Bishop Pruitt responds: ‘The General Assembly says it has to be 100% approval for the new General Overseer. We need a lot of prayer. We must follow the directed steps, the directed steps of God to bring this about.’ Nabors responds: ‘Yes, Bishop Pruitt. I agree.’ Special prayer for Bishop Pruitt was then offered. Robert J. Pruitt, chairman, James C. Nabors, Walter G. Lofton, Herman D. Ard, Kevin D. Werkheiser.” That concluded, uh, our meeting. Bishop Pruitt stayed in the office for a few moments. His oldest son came to pick him up. He walked back out of the building. The staff hugged his neck. He walked out on his own power, got in his automobile, and his oldest son drove him home. We’ve had several conversations since that time. His concern is that the Presbytery get it right. 100% is what’s on his mind. God bless you, brethren.
S. Smith: Uh, thank you, Brother Nabors. The Presbytery did ask, uh, permission to, uh, ask questions regarding, regarding the report if the desired to do so. I told them that would be alright, as long as we don’t get into a long, extended discussion—to be as brief as possible. Are there any, anything you’d like to ask Brother Nabors?... Yes, please.
D. Smith: If I understood correctly, we could also ask the committee.
S. Smith: Uh, is there any—I don’t recall that—is there any objection to asking the committeemen a question? Okay, I suppose you’re free to do that.
Aviles: Hermano Horne, did you, did you say anything?
D. Smith: About asking the committee questions?
Horne: (not at microphone) I believe so, yes. It’s in the record.
S. Smith: Alright, if there’s no objection to that then go right ahead.
D. Smith: I’d like to ask the committee since—Dewayne Smith—I’d like to ask the committee, since the report has not been signed, do you agree with the reading of this… Brother Ard, I’ll start with you.
Ard: I want to answer this, and then I will not be questioned any farther. The report is incorrect. Uh, I had a meeting with the committee. I, I asked Brother Nabors to let’s rearrange it. He said he would not rearrange it. That’s the way he saw it, and if I wanted to write a report myself and put it in there, that I could. But he would not change the wording. I informed the committee I would not sign it then, and in the next meeting with the General Overseer—whoever it is—I still would not sign it because it’s incorrect.
Estep: Donald Estep. I would like to know which part, in particular, is incorrect.
Ard: (not at microphone) Brother Estep.
S. Smith: You need to come to the mike, please. Get close to it, Brother Ard.
Ard: I think I made it clear that I would make a statement and I would not be questioned.
Estep: Alright, I understand you correct, Brother Ard, that you will not be questioned?
Ard: You understand right. Yes, sir.
Estep: You just were questioned, and you answered…Brother Smith.
Aviles: Would you say that again?
Estep: You just were asked a question by Brother Dewayne Smith. You came up and gave us an answer. I think this Presbytery should hear, at this point, if Brother Nabors has given us, some small, uh, some wrong information, I think we need to know that. I think if there’s something here that is not true, we don’t need to wait until later because this is going to remain in the minds of the Presbytery. It will affect us in how we make our decision and thinking concerning the General Overseer. Since the, since the report has been read, and now, at, we are told that it’s not correct, how can we go on without knowing what is incorrect? And what, why are you afraid to answer that?
Ard: (not at microphone) Brother Estep, if you, uh…
Aviles: Got to get to the mike, brother.
Ard: Brother Estep, if you want to egg it on, then we can do it. Uh, it is evident that something is wrong with the report because there’s no signatures. It should not have been read to this body, it should not been read to this body without the signatures.
Estep: Brother Ard, I’m not trying to argue or egg something on. I really, I real, am very sorry that you used that kind of expression. That is not my intention. I would just really like to get to the truth of whether the report is true or not. And, uh, an accusation is made it’s incorrect. And that will trouble my mind and this Presbytery. I have nothing personally against you, Brother Ard, and no desire to put you on the spot. That’s not my purpose in questioning you. I do understand that I heard something read here that normally the reports are not read until the next—or signed, rather—until the next meeting. And perhaps that’s the reason they’re not signed. But I don’t understand why you make an accusation, but you’re not willing to tell us what’s wrong with it. And, again, I don’t want to create a bad spirit. And I will leave that up to the moderator. If he feels like I’m in the wrong, Brother Smith…help me out.
S. Smith: Uh, I see Brother Dupre standing. Do you have anything that might help clear us up here? I don’t, don’t have anything yet.
Dupre: Um, I, my concern is this. Uh, from what I have heard, um, it has been stated that, uh, it was declared that there would be no, uh, changing of the report as it was read today. And that would concern me more than it being signed or why it would not be signed. Uh, and that’s, of course that was reported by one man. If that was heard by another man, or either of the other men, I would have a greater concern in the fact that, if I presented a change, that I, that the, the recording person would be unwilling to, to do that. And, uh, to me that, to me that’s a greater issue, than being against the report. See, if I was on a committee, I would feel frustrated to present a change. Uh, so that, that concerns me more than, uh, the information that the report, it may not be correct. Um, I don’t know if there are any of the other brethren that would like to speak—
Nabors: (not at microphone) I would like to respond to that.
S. Smith: Uh, I think we’re creating a, a lot of questions here that probably are going to have to be answered by the other two members of the committeemen as well. Would you two brethren—
Nabors: I’d like to respond to him…
S. Smith: …say something. Uh, Brother Nabors, I’ll allow you to respond to him, briefly if you would, then I would like to let the other two… Thank you, brother.
Nabors: It was stated just a moment ago, that they were to have any corrections or additions to these minutes Thursday morning. I did not receive any corrections… We had a meeting Friday morning. Brother Ard asked us all to come together. He did say, I would not sign them in their present condition. I gave liberty that day, If you have additions or corrections, I would be glad to receive them by Friday morning, (repeat for translator) by Friday morning. No one brought me any corrections or additions. We stated in that meeting, if you choose not to bring any corrections or additions, you write it out from your vantage point and it will be added to the report that will be brought in to the new General Overseer’s office. I stated I could not change what was written. Let me, let me correct one item. Deacon Lofton presented his changes that he felt needed to be in. They have been incorporated in what you heard today, but I did not receive anything else even though permission was given…or liberty was given for them to present whatever they desired. I took it from that, that they would probably write what they saw. But I will not change what I wrote because I consider it to be correct. If there’s any corrections to be made they should have been given at the time that was allotted.
Dupre: I understand what you are saying, Brother Nabors, but it is common practice in the Church—and, and, as you’ve stated, that the signing of that would occur—
Nabors: That’s correct.
Dupre: At a rereading. And it’s always been a practice in the Church that at that rereading that if there were some questions or concerns at that time, there could be some changes made. So, I don’t know what’s the difficulty of making changes at any point in time up until that time… Um, I would like to hear what the other two brethren have to say. I, I just have a difficulty in the idea we’re not going to make any changes.
Aviles: Just give me time, just give me a chance to, to catch up to you because I want my brethren to know everything that’s being said.
Dupre: Yes, yes. I’m sorry.
Aviles: And when you get ahead of me, then I lose, and they might not get the whole picture. Okay, start over again. I’ll put you on the hot spot.
Dupre: It is common practice in the Church, even when a report is not to be signed until there is a re-reading at the next meeting, that there would be opportunity to, to correct that report before the signing of it. And having the knowledge that, uh, any one or any number of the committeemen would have a difficulty signing it in its present form, uh, it, it seems to me that at some point in time, even at the next reading, it would have to be corrected if it’s going to be entered into the record as official document. Uh, it has to be signed by all the committeemen. And so, as a committee, the, you know, having known that there’s a difficulty that some may not sign—and I, I do understand the time constraint here—uh, but I do not understand the idea that it would not be adjusted to accommodate all the committeemen where they could feel good to sign it. And I certainly would be comfortable at least believing that it will, it will be put in a form that will be congenial to those that would not sign it at this present time. My position is, is not divulge of the fact that I am concerned as to why it can’t be signed… I have a concern with that, too. But my greater concern is the fact that there would not be any adjustment to the present report while there was accommodation to present an accommodating report. In other words, two different reports. I think it would be in fairness to this Presbytery for this committee to work out that difficulty and present us a report that they can all agree on. And, this is, uh, this meeting is of such utmost importance that I don’t think a time, uh, constraint is a justified reason not to have a signed report. Uh, we’re, we’re, we don’t have any time restraint on us, as we’re well aware already (laughs) because of the importance of this meeting. And as Bishop, uh, Nabors has already said, Brother Pruitt wants us to get it right. Uh, that is, uh, that is a awesome charge from our retiring General Overseer. And so, if we’re going to spend the time to be here, as someone has already said, until the 10th of what? (Laughs) That we give these brethren opportunity to go back and work out their difficulties, and bring us a report they can agree on.
S. Smith: Uh, okay, I’m trying to, uh, establish proper order here. I know there’s quite a number of people here wanting to speak. I’ve already forgotten what your question was Brother Estep. Let, uh, I tell you what, uh, um, we obviously need to hear from these committeemen. Maybe it’ll get answered—
Estep: (not at microphone) Brother Ard wants to…a question, so just let me say a word and he can…respond to it…
S. Smith: Okay, Brother Estep.
Estep: Donald Estep. I think Brother Dupre somewhat answered, in his final remarks, what is… If I understood you correct, Brother Dupre…they get together and, and come up with something they could all accept, and come back?
Dupre: (not at microphone) Correct.
Estep: ‘Cause I really don’t want to leave us where we are now, Brother Smith… There needs to be some answers… We’re, we’re making progress—we agree on something! (Laughs)
Dupre: I, I believe we do agree, Brother Estep. I, I think we’re paying a dear price in time for ourselves to do it right as Bishop Pruitt has said. And I, I think it’s not, uh, an imposition upon this committee to ask them to go back and come, and get a report together they all can sign. And then bring that report. Do you feel good about that?
Estep: Yes, I do. I, I, I understand that Brother Ard has been given some time. But now, I would like to give him some more time. Please don’t leave us hanging, that’s all…
S. Smith: Alright, I’m going to let Brother Ard, uh, speak here, and then you other two brethren, whatever order you want to come, uh, I’d like to hear from each of you.
Ard: When Brother Nabors left the report on my desk, I read it and I knew that I could not sign it because it was incorrect, and I asked if they would meet with me. And I asked, I asked Brother Nabors, and I knew that that report would be read to this body. And in doing so, I wanted it corrected before the next meeting with the new General Overseer, because what goes on record in this body is on record. And Brother Nabors told me in front of the other two committeemen that he would not change the statements that he said I made. Therefore, I did not feel it necessary for me to write an addendum, or whatever you call it, of what I was saying to put in that report as another piece of paper. So that is the reason that I did not write, write my version of what went on in that meeting—is because it would have just been another piece of paper added to that and the statements would have still been wrong. So therefore, Brother Estep, I would not sign it then and I won’t sign it now. And I, I, I won’t, I won’t speak for the other committeemen but all three of them was in there when Bishop Nabors told me, he said, “These will stay as they are, but if you want to present something to go with it, you can.” Therefore, therefore I refused to.
(Voices)
Lofton: Greetings to you. Walter Lofton, Administrative Committeeman. I want you to know, brethren, that my heart is very troubled when I see The Church of God in such an array of disunity, and the whole world is looking at us, and we’re the only people on the face of the earth that God has destined to reach a state of perfect unity. My heart aches because we spend so much time in discussion, and not hardly any time in prayer. I believe if we would just spend this time in prayer, that God would come down and solve our problems. Now, I know that we don’t all agree on everything, but a lot of this is just a matter of personal interpretation. If we can come together in the right spirit, I believe the spirit of love and unity will help us to arrive at a, an interpretation we could all agree on. There is one point in the report that Brother Nabors read that I would like to clarify—and I’m not saying this to point a finger at Brother Nabors—I think it’s just a matter of miscommunication, because when I speak to him, and then he speaks to his wife, and she types it up, I understand that some things can be lost in a situation like that. But, uh, I think we all, as brethren, need to give each other the benefit of the doubt and not start pointing fingers and accusing one another, because we’re all in the body and we want it to be right. I’m fully persuaded there is not a brother sitting here today that does not want it right. But we won’t get it right until we can get in a spirit of submission one to another. And I will agree that I did some corrections to the report, as Brother Nabors stated. But I think maybe one point might have been misunderstood, and I will try to clarify that. And I don’t want to get into what any of the other brothers except for them to talk for themselves, but since we didn’t record it and we had to try to think what we said two or three weeks later, to the best of my recollection, and as honest as I can be with you, I believe this is what I said. I asked Brother Pruitt if he could hold up to the strain to the Assembly, and the strain of moderating an Assembly. And if he did, my implication—I might have not said it in so many words—then what about the next year, could you hold up under the strain of another year’s work? And his answer was he could not. And that’s, uh, I feel like that pretty well covers when I said and have to correct. I want you to know I’m praying for this meeting. And I love these brethren in the Lord. And I want to see this meeting—from my personal standpoint—I want to see it concluded with the same thing that’s stated in Acts where it seems good to the Holy Ghost, and to us. God bless you.
Werkheiser: Greetings to you, brethren. Uh, Kevin Werkheiser, and I love and appreciate, uh, each of you, and I appreciate what you’re doing here. I have some contact with nearly all of you on almost a weekly basis. And again I want to tell you my appreciation for you. Uh, I, uh, could not, uh, sign, uh, the minutes as they were read to you. Uh, the minutes were given to me, uh, on Wednesday afternoon, late afternoon, I believe. Uh, they were slid under my door. When I came back to my office I found them there. Uh, shortly, uh, after that I received a call, uh, from, uh Sister Nabors, asking me if I had any changes to be made to give them to her first thing in the morning. I read through those minutes, and, uh, there were, uh, points that, uh, I didn’t feel were complete. And being an official record of The Church of God, and especially after the, uh, conditions and pertaining to the situation of the retirement of the General Overseer, I wanted to make sure to the best of my recollection that every word, uh, was to how I remembered it to be. And so I, I, I could not, uh, sign, uh, the, uh, minutes the way that they were presented to me. Uh, there was some minor details in wording that, uh, wasn’t the way that I remembered it, or even the things that I said. And, uh, there, there was some things that, uh, I thought I recalled in, uh, in my mind I didn’t see that weren’t written there. Uh, but the essence of the meeting, uh, was Bishop Pruitt came in to meet with the committee. We expressed our concerns after having, uh, seen this letter that appeared on the internet. We talked to him about how he felt, uh, his ability or inability to, uh, proceed under his, uh, condition and under the stress and load for the office of General Overseer. And at the conclusion of that meeting, he had made a decision, as he stated in his farewell address, to retire and vacate the office of the General Overseer. It is obvious to each of us that that’s why you’re here today, that, uh, Bishop Pruitt, in fact, retired and resigned the office, uh, vacated the office of the General Overseer. And so, uh, that is, uh, uh, the way that the meeting had progressed and concluded. And, uh, that’s uh, the statement that I’d like to share with you at this point.
S. Smith: Uh, let me as this committee a question. Are you all willing to, uh—I know you’re very busy men—but would you be willing to find a place, uh, to pray and get together this afternoon and present something to us that you could all feel good about? Would you be willing to try that again? As far as this part of it, um, everybody would be satisfied with them making that attempt, wouldn’t it? Now, I don’t want to, uh, keep them here too much while we’re continuing to discuss this, but if there was a, a question that needed to be asked while they’re here, we want to give that opportunity. Brother Estep, I’ve had Brother Acosta waiting for quite a while. … Oh, okay. Come ahead, Brother Acosta.
Acosta: My name is Donaldo Acosta. I just want to emphasize in a few words, it, it was said in the beginning of the statement Brother Nabors presented that he, he would like to have a recorder, to, to been able to record everything that was said in that meeting. That, that tells me they, it might be possibility that, uh, difficulty to recall everything that took place. I, I just know that, I also like to stand appreciation because they are a committee. They have to, you know, they have to handle their business as a committee. The, the word that I, that I, I can interpret, the word that I can interpret can have a different meaning to, for the person that has stated. And I could mislead whatever that person mean, meant to say. And, uh, and, uh, it was pleased to me to hear from the other three members of the committee that, that is, that is some corrections to take place. And I just know what I recommend to you for the love for this Presbytery and, and The Church of God, to come to a unity. We know, there, there’s no doubt in our mind we, we are united, and if they can come in, uh, to get a unity it will be a blessing to all of us here.
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Acosta. I, I think that’s probably a fine suggestion, in this modern age of uh, audio equipment. And it’s not a matter of distrust of one another, it’s a matter of accuracy. I, I suspect all, all of us have had meetings with people, and afterwards they remembered it a little bit different than what we did. That’s the, uh, weakness of the human brain. Uh, did anyone else that was in the meeting, did you take notes, anyone besides brother Nabors?
Werkheiser: (not at microphone) I, I jotted a few minor notes.
S. Smith: Uh, I believe if we pray for these brethren the Holy Ghost is going to help them, uh, get this together in a way that will, uh, satisfy them. Because, um, (clarification with interpreter) uh, Brother Nabors did mention that they normally sign those minutes at the next meeting. But we’re in Presbytery meeting, and I think we’d feel comfortable, uh, if we had minutes we felt were real official that all of them could feel comfortable to sign. And the Holy Ghost can do that for us. Now, they’re going to need more than what we need for lunch to do that. I think that we’ll have time for lunch and a nap while they work (laughter). I, I hate to put ya’ll under a time schedule—it’s, it’s a little after twelve—I’ll pay for the pizzas if ya’ll want to order something in. Uh, do you think, uh, uh, 4:00, that’s 4 hours. Would that be enough do you, to, for, do you feel like you could come to a conclusion? Or 3:00, 4:00? I don’t, you may even want to go to lunch and come back and do that—I don’t want to put you under too much stress.
Nabors: (not at microphone) All we can tell you is we’ll just have to see. We don’t know.
(Request for clarification)
Castellanos: Um, I—um, Jose Castellanos, I’m so sorry—I just want to make one clear statement, it’s not offending no one. But Brother Nabors did said, stated that you should’ve gone and write down minutes. And I know, and I know that we are…knowledge of recording. But I believe we usually don’t record all our meetings. So, I just want to make that clear. And actually in the state of California it’s illegal to record meetings if we don’t have everyone’s consent. And I just want to clarify that, of why they were not, I believe it was a little, it was not clear to me why they would not recorded the meeting, the minutes.
S. Smith: I hope there’s no law like that in Tennessee (laughter).
Castellanos: Well, there is in California.
Grant: (not at microphone) We all consent.
S. Smith: Alright, I think everyone would consent to the authority. Brother Lester wants to get a clarification.
Lester: I believe we talked about it being official. Uh, when I was in law enforcement and I would investigate and accident, you could in, you could interrogate three different people and get three different answers. Now, Brother Ard seen it one way. And Brother Kevin said that he felt like, I think he said that, that there might have been some minor—is that what you said, some minor adjustments, or minor things said?
Werkheiser: …things missing.
Lester: Brother Lofton made some statement and Brother Nabors saw it his way, and it’s kind of hard. We always say, “That’s your interpretation.” It’s been said in this meeting, that there’s, that you, they interpret a scripture one way and somebody else interprets it another way. And how, it’ll never, and you was talking about putting it into the history. And did I hear you today say it was unofficial? It’s unofficial. How are you going go make them official if different ones have different views of what went on?
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Lester. At this moment that would be difficult to do. And, uh, our hope is that through their our prayers—and remember that we’re not operating in a carnal, fleshly world—the Holy Ghost can give them unity and enough recollection that they can, uh, certainly at least agree on the basics of what took place there, and provide enough that they’d all feel good to, uh, to sign it and bring it back to us, I feel like.
Hernandez: God bless you all. My name is Caleb Hernandez. And I, I, I give thanks to the Lord that He has gathered us all here together for the, uh, for the Presbytery, and the Administrative Committee is here with us. I believe that in The Church of God, every, every business, it has to come to a unanimous decision. And I know that the, the committee is going to gather themselves, or one, if they don’t, uh, come to one accord, this, uh, this business will not, uh, go ahead and pass. We know business. Some of the, uh, the brethren that got here before me have, um, have said what I wanted to state. And if you, uh, come, uh, and have recognized, I, I, I don’t come often to speak. Allow me now to read a few scriptures that would be, uh, that would be refreshing to the mind of this Presbytery, and to our hearts. And be willing to, to come to one accord. To come, uh, to seek for…in our minds…the will of God. Let us put our human will to the side. Uh, the Lord Jesus Christ, before He was taken up, up on the cross…
Hernandez: …so He might, uh, forgive you of your sins and my sins, you know, He ask of His Father, and he…Lord, Father, let it be your will be done. And not my will be done, but Yours. I have no doubt in my mind that this is The Church of God, and we should not be in the way, we should not be in the way of the Holy Ghost. It’s well not to ignore His Holy Word. Before we, uh, break for lunch and this committee, uh, so they can go out here and, uh, discuss and revise and come to one accord, let me read these scriptures. If we can just come together as one body…gathering His people as His just one body, His Israel, talking about Israel. And my feeling, as everyone in this Presbytery is to be, uh, of just one mind and one body. Just one body. If I’m not mistaken, I believe all I’ve read and preach upon, the scripture about Psalm 133. But it is good, say that it’s good… How good and how pleasant to dwell together in unity. I don’t know how. I want to be pleasing to the Lord and to the, to each one of us. In the book of Acts, 1:14, listen to this, uh, suggested recommendation. 1:14, Acts 1:14. “These all continued with one accord…” Say it with us, “…in one accord.” “In one”—say it with us all together, “… in one accord, in prayer and supplication.” And if we are, uh, God’s chosen…if we are The Church of God, we must come together in unity. This author says, uh, Acts 2:1, it says they were all in, uh, unanimousim, one accord. Uh, that it’s, it’s possible to be all be here, gathered together all. But it, the most important part should be the one accord, be unanimous. Brother Lester mentioned a few things we, in the, in our countries, in our Hispanic, uh, countries is because you, uh, this country is remain in unity…give place to the Holy Ghost. And this is a great truth. The growth that we have experienced in Central America, it’s that we had a ministry that is sound and we have a good…in unity, and that has helped us to have that success, and that The Church of God may grow. But this is not just giving only to the Central Americans, not only to the Latin people, it’s, it’s giving to all of us, it’s to the whole world where the Church is. It’s, it’s been mandated by God, and that’s how the early Church…which ourself are the continuation of that Church. In chapter 2, verse 46 says, and they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from the house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness, and singleness of heart. And, and if we as, as members of this Presbytery, we should be the first to give this example. Let, let us all carry on the Word of God, the sound doctrine. Let’s live the Word of God. And let’s, and let’s go on…praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved… Added to the Church. We are introduction of the inflow. That’s why we need to be…in this unity. To con-, uh, to conclude. Paul said to the Cor-, Cor-, Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 10. Brethren, I ask of you in the name of the, the head of the Church, of Jesus Christ our Lord, that we all speak, let us all together to speak, that’s all together, to speak one thing. And dissention, uh, be among us, if not there be all in perfect unity, in one mind, in one mind… God bless you.
S. Smith: Hallelujah. Amen. Good praying and good singing and good preaching. It’s going to be imperative to carrying us on to God’s conclusion here. This thing is more than talk. It’s getting God’s Word and God’s Spirit involved. Brother Ard has asked me to mention something to you. He has given out money to a number of you to help take care of you. If you have received money from him, if you would please right now write your name on a piece of paper, and when we dismiss take that to him. Now, we’re going to have prayer and free this committee in a minute. And I want to ask us to leave them alone and let them work (laughter). Brother Dupre.
Dupre: Just looking for the tablet where we signed our names. It hadn’t gotten back around yet.
S. Smith: Okay, is there anyone who did not sign?
Dupre: Oh, it just got here.
S. Smith: I have not signed it. Is there anyone else? Okay, please, uh, okay, please, uh, let’s do that (laughter). Alright, we’ll let him pray about that (laughter). We’re going to pray for these men and dismiss, and we will come back at 4:00 and hopefully they will be ready to meet with us. Gather with me, and let’s pray for them. 4:00. Be back here at 4:00. It’s, one, it’s after twelve now. Okay, we’ll try it at 4:00. If they’re not ready we’ll try to be lenient and, but be back at 4:00. Let’s pray.
(Prayer)
Adjourned at 12:30pm
4:27 pm
(Brother Aviles made an announcement in Spanish)
Aviles: I want to make a statement right here. I, uh, want to apologize to my Spanish brothers. I never come here with the intent of harming anybody. There’s been some complaints about my interpreting. I am one that come here not ever wanting to hurt anybody on purpose. I came here with a clean heart, clean conscience, and I have never, never ever wanted to do anything that’s harmful to the body of Christ. I was telling Brother Smith, I don’t have the education that some of you have. I was never raised in a, in a, in a family where I could, uh, learn the, the, the, the, the correct way of speaking Spanish. But I can guarantee you one thing, with God as my witness, that I would never, ever, ever say anything that’s not in the Word of God. So I’m asking you to forgive me. Pray for me, that God will give me the unction to be able to say whatever these men read. I don’t want nobody to say that I’ve changed the wording, uh, because I’ve changed the wording, uh, because I’m not, I’m not saying it correctly. That’s not my intentions. I try to say everything that they read from a report or whatever it is—a scripture—I try to do it to the best of my ability. And if you feel like I’m not adequate enough, then let me know and I’ll let Brother Jose to come up here, and I’ll sit down. I would rather sit there than be back here and, and, and harm this Presbytery.
S. Smith: I, I think you brethren have seen how I stumble for words in English. How much more difficult it is to try to take those and translate them, not only from me, but from all of you, back and forth, Spanish to English, English to Spanish. So while we’re praying, we need to remember and pray for these brethren that are interpreting for us. It’s a great challenge, and, uh, they need an anointing of God and strength from God so we don’t wear them out. Were you wanting to speak?
Aviles: Oh, he wants to pray.
S. Smith: Yes. Thank you. Alright, let’s stand together, and the Administrative Committee is back, and let’s have a good prayer, open up these hearts to heaven right now for what we are about to receive.
(Prayer: 4:21pm—4:25pm)
S. Smith: Alright, we’ll let you be seated. I do want to mention to you that we have, uh, two new microphones. Uh, you won’t have to walk quite as far. Um, it may be that a little later on we can, can get some stands and get them a little bit, um, out there a little bit further. But when you get ready to speak, feel free to come to either side and pick up one of these microphones. Alright, are you gentlemen ready? I don’t know who’s reading. Brother, Brother Nabors, come right ahead.
Nabors: Thank you, Brother Smith. And we greet you again this afternoon. Thank you for allowing the Administrative Committee to come back before you again this afternoon. We appreciate the prayers that you prayed for us today and, I’m sure, throughout this afternoon. And I do want to acknowledge the work, the hard work that each of these brothers have done, uh, not only in the last while, but in the last uh, 30 days especially. Brother Lofton and Brother Werkheiser and, uh, Brother Ard, we appreciate everything that they have done to help to get you brothers here. We will read the minutes of the August 11th meeting again this afternoon.
Voice: (not at microphone) May.
Castellanos: May?
Nabors: May the 11th 2006, thank you. We, uh, you will see, or hear, only slight corrections that have been made. The original document has been signed by all four of us. We, as a committee feel, that for them to, uh, be a, a, uh, a official document, they will, it will still require the signature of the new General Overseer. But they are, they are as official as they can be, with us four signature on the document. All four of us have agreed that these minutes are as accurate as they possibly can be. With that understanding, I will read the minutes. “Administrative Committee Meeting, May 11th 2006. Attending: Robert J. Pruitt, James C. Nabors, Walter G. Lofton, Herman D. Ard, Kevin D. Werkheiser. Uh, Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘As you are aware, I just finished a school of communication. I received all passing grades. I only missed two questions. The doctor met with me and we discussed his assessment of my condition. Do you brethren have anything you would like to say?’ Brother Ard: ‘In reading the statement from the doctor, the doctor has stated that he feels you are not able to make decisions. If you are not able to continue, we need to proceed with what the General Assembly has said. If this is the case, we need to select a new leader because of this situation. It would be more peaceful throughout the Church if you would vacate the office. Then the Presbytery could meet to choose a leader. The people on the field will only accept you as the leader, if you are able to lead. If you are not able to lead, they will not accept anyone, anyone else, making the decisions.’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘The wisdom of the world is to analyze jobs, and the reasoning required needs unity, of reasoning, and the spiritual side. What we are in is for the sake of finding the answer to perfection.’ Brother Ard speaks: ‘Is anyone else going to speak?’ Period of silence. ‘The only thing, Brother Pruitt, is when this, whenever this letter concerning your health hits the field, the State Overseers and pastors will want it resolved. If you felt you could step down or allow someone else in because of your health situation, and because calls are coming in, it would help the Church. We are in a crucial time and crossroads.’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘This is not a position that allows us to vote. It must be allowed by the Spirit of God. As it is, I feel unless I get healed from God, I’d be better off in this position,’ meaning retirement. ‘My doctor…’ After a long pause, Brother Nabors said, ‘Kemkar,’ (repeat for translator) Kemkar, Kenkar, the name Kemkar. Kemkar has been approached by some people and he told them that my ability would not at the present time allow a full load. He suggested that I should not be depended on to lead. He listed abilities that are required to do this work. But secular and spiritual work is very different. My wife is also having health problems. I’ve been out for her sickness also. I feel this is the only wife I have, and I’m the only husband that she has to take care of her, so it’s expected of a husband. Over the last two years, there has been a barrage of mission of love and prayers. Because of this, we saw her rise gracefully,’ speaking of Sister Pruitt. ‘The doctor is not involved in religious thoughts. He recommends not doing work from that standpoint alone. Unless we could get answers and see them demonstrated, I don’t feel that I can carry on the load that is required here. Having received your letter, what are your thoughts?’ Brother Ard speaks: ‘According to the medical information and advice, he is saying you are unable to make decisions in this office. You cannot make decisions, so that is why the doctor says you are unable to perform your duties. He named the things that are plaguing you. The people on the field say, because of your physical situation, we need to call a Presbytery meeting to select a new General Overseer until the General Assembly. At the present time, according to the doctor, you are unable to do the work. When I received a call last night, I pulled up the information on the website. When I saw it, I became physically sick. I feel it would be better to get a new General Overseer, because I don’t want you to have another stroke.’ Brother Lofton speaks: ‘All of us are having a hard time with this. We have love and devotion for your leadership for the past 13 years. We respect you. In your present condition, do you think you could you make it to the General Assembly, or do you think you would be able to moderate the General Assembly? What about another year’s work? We desire to see the Church progress. We are at a crossroads. The first thing we want to see is for God to touch you. Sometimes God speaks through different circumstances. Do you think you could hold up under the stress and strain of the daily workload?’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘I don’t feel like I could, under the present circumstances.’ Brother Werkheiser speaks: ‘It is no secret to any of us that there have been questions about the decisions made from General Headquarters and from the office of General Overseer. Many people are wondering about your decisions. Some have taken this too far, and others are genuinely concerned. If there were questions before about the decisions being made, now that this letter from the doctor is on the field, every decision will be questioned. It would be very difficult to have decisions made by the General Overseer when the doctor says your not able to do so. It would be difficult to lead under those circumstances. Brother Lofton asked if you would be able to stand up to the workload or moderate the General Assembly. I appreciate your honest answer, in that you wouldn’t be able to do it, to do it. The integrity of the Church is in question. It’s not an easy decision. It’s not comfortable to even speak about this.’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘It is very obvious 8 or 9 weeks was valuable in helping my wife get better. I have, I have tried to be righteous in all of my affairs. Again, the doctor believes I should not be making decisions.’ Brother Nabors speaks: ‘Your integrity is intact, Brother Pruitt,’ (repeat for translator) ‘Brother Pruitt. You have the greatest respect in The Church of God. We are convinced that your health and your life are of the utmost importance. I’m different from Brother Ard. I have received no calls from State Overseers and pastors wanting you out. All who have called me have been totally concerned about your health.’ We, we want what is best for you. How do you feel? What do you think the Lord wants?’ Brother Lofton speaks: ‘The scripture says that God would not put on, on us more than we were able to bear. If you are not able to bear the stress and strain, then God will not put it on you.’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘Well, I am weak in body. I don’t feel that I’m able to carry out the day in, day out responsibilities that this job requires. I, I am weak.’ Brother Nabors speaks: ‘Let me make sure that I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying, then, that you want the rest of the Administrative Committee to set a date for a Presbytery meeting, call the State and National Overseers, and select an Interim General Overseer until the General Assembly and let the General Assembly decide?’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘I don’t want to make a mistake. I don’t want to displease God. But I cannot make that schedule. Yes, that’s what I’m saying to you, Brother Nabors.’ Brother Ard speaks: ‘I don’t feel God would hold you responsible if you had to make that decision due to your health.’ Brother Nabors speaks: ‘Brother Pruitt, I don’t think you would displease God. It’s like I talked with you about before concerning my father. The preacher was still there, but the body was too weak to go with the preacher. I feel the Lord will honor your decision. If that is your decision, I stand with you 100% on what you desire to do.’ Brother Pruitt speaks: ‘The General Assembly says it has to be 100% approval for the new General Overseer. We need a lot of prayer. We must follow the directed steps of God to bring this about.’ Brother Nabors speaks: ‘Yes, Bishop Pruitt. I agree.’ There was special prayer for Brother Pruitt. And then our names follow: Robert J. Pruitt, chairman, James C. Nabors, Herman D. Ard, Walter G. Lofton, Kevin D. Werkheiser.” Thank you, Brother Smith, that concludes the minutes that we have.
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Nabors. Thank you, Brother Nabors, and we thank this committee. Uh, I didn’t think to ask if you have a second copy. Did you just bring the one with you.
Nabors: Brother Smith, as a committee, we felt that we should not give out a copy of the minutes since they have not been signed by the new General Overseer, and it has not been the policy of the Administrative Committee to put copies of our meeting out. I’m sorry. We, we thought after the new Overseer is selected that a copy could be given then to go into this file that you’re keeping.
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Nabors. Of course, we do have a copy that we are recording here. And I think that would be acceptable to all of us, to have a written copy after the new General Overseer could sign that. I think this committee has, uh, done we’ve requested of them. And in behalf of the Presbytery, we want to thank you for shutting down your already heavy workload and spending these hours working together to get this done. And I know that it, it took the spirit of submission from all of you, uh, to be able to do this. And you’ve set a good pattern for us now. And we want to function in this Presbytery in the same spirit. We’re let them be dismissed at this time. Thank you once again, brethren. God bless you.
(Administrative Committee vacates the building)
S. Smith: Uh, is there anything further we need from, as far as discussion, uh, what they have shared with us? Alright. Uh, we do have a couple of other items that have been mentioned, and, uh, one of them concerned the reading of the, uh, minutes of the Presbytery meeting of 1943. If you are interested in having those read, we’ll be happy to read those to you. Would you like to have those read, brethren? Okay, we’ve got some that are saying they do. Also, a, uh, copy of the Solemn Assembly of 1993 has been given to me and, uh, someone has requested that I consider reading a tongues and interpretation that was given during that time. Uh, he thought it might be good for us to hear that. So, if it’s alright, I’ll, I’ll read this to you, and then we’ll look at the minutes from 1943. The, the mess, uh, the, the interpretation of this message: “Yea, I say unto you, my people, this nation is not too big for me to burn and destroy. This nation is but a drop in the bucket. Hearken unto my Word. Harden not your hearts, harden not your hearts in the day of provocation. Harden not your hearts. I will cut you off, I will cut you off, I will cut you off. Oh, harden not your hearts. Harden not your hearts. Seek my face and humble thyself unto Me, and I will bless you and give you direction, and ye shall be My people. Turn your face back on Me.” That sounds like a good admonition to me. The, the reading of these minutes will take a little bit of time, so you’ll have to bear with me. Um, if it’s alright, I will start at the point where they begin to, uh, consider the selection of the Overseer since we have already proceeded to this point. Is that satisfactory? Alright. I won’t give you all the, uh, time references they have here, uh, but I will give the first time. Uh, “9:04am Brother Gillespie was given permission to speak. Permission given to read Brother Lawson’s message, sent in over the phone, which was read by A. D. Evans, with the exception of the paragraph which had the suggested name of the new General Overseer. Brother Holcomb asked, ‘Could we select anyone who has been appointed by Brother Tomlinson as secretaries or overseers to serve in this capacity?’ Brother Evans answered this with an emphatic, ‘Yes! Since it is up to this body to select one to serve in this capacity, either overseer or non-overseer. This body of overseers…’” Let me start that sentence again. “‘This body of overseers only has the authority to select one to be the General Overseer during the remainder of this year and through the General Assembly. A permanent one to be selected in the forthcoming Assembly.’ Then Brother Moxley speaks, wanting us to draw close enough to God to select the man today that will be God’s man to fill this position. A. D. Evans suggests the withholding of all names for General Overseer until further discussion. Talk by J. P. Sullivan.”
Castellanos: Talk?
S. Smith: Yeah, talk. He began to speak. “He states that we are personal representatives of the General Overseer, and he desires the new Overseer to have the spirit of our former Overseer. Brother Holley read Psalm 87:5, ‘And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.’ The Holy Ghost working mightily in our presence. Brother McDonald speaks. He mentions David, who knew nothing but caring for the sheep, but he knew how to fight a battle. Saul didn’t think David could go against the giant. Brother McDonald didn’t know, but that the five stones were Overseers or General Secretaries. We need a man God has built. If, if we build one, there will be weak places behind to look back at.” To look back to. I’m sorry. “Brother Evans remarked, ‘God is with us.’ Brother Holley refers again to Psalms 87:5. He expresses his belief that the office will never leave the family. Brother Curry, ‘Let’s not let someone come between Moses and Joshua.’ Brother Smith says, ‘I feel that we should think of the program ahead of us. His spirit,’ speaking of Brother Tomlinson, ‘is still here. That spirit has got to stay. We want a man with a good report, within and without. That spirit of treating rich and poor alike has got to stay.’ Brother Lowman, ‘In the multitude of counselors there is safety. We don’t want to be too quick and get out of God’s will.’ Brother Shultz, ‘It seems that under Bible history, that God doesn’t change leaders every ten or twelve years, but has stayed with the number 40 years.’ Brother Queener, ‘Once Israel almost got the wrong man.’ Brother Gillespie, ‘Saul was born in Zion, but he persecuted the Church of God.’ Brother Stafford says, ‘He did, but he got converted.’ Brother Wilson, ‘This is the highest office there is. I wonder how much experience he had when he found it in the Fields of the Wood. None of us have the experience, but God will give this.’ Brother Wood, ‘He always encouraged me to go on. He was so humble.’ Brother McDonald, ‘Joshua was in the camp before Moses passed away.’ Explanation by A. D. Evans, ‘Although this body has power to select one until the Assembly, if we could get the man that is God’s man, then he can continue after the Assembly. This, of course, will have to be ratified at the General Assembly.’ Brother Moxley, ‘They crawled on their hands and knees in the rising of the last days’ Church. I believe that this body of men today ought to be at least close enough to God to select the man today that in the Assembly there will be no trouble.’ Brother Fowler, ‘God said, I have found a man, I have found David. There is no doubt but what God has found a man. Acts 15:28, “It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us.”’ Brother Sullivan, ‘I am saying this for us not to pay too much attention to shadows. We can’t follow shadows all the way in the Church of God. We can’t expect to come along 400 years with ups and downs.’ Brother Silvers, ‘We have passed over the shadow, and we are in the real thing. David laid the plans for the temple. Solomon carried out the plans and built the Lord’s house.’ Brother McDonald, ‘We have got to try now to make a decision.’ Brother Evans explained that in the absence of the Assembly, the General Overseer has power to act. The Assembly provided for the General Overseer to act for, and until, and through the Assembly. Brother Smith asked if the one appointed would be the Overseer, or acting Overseer. The answer was that he would be Overseer from now through the Assembly. Brother Johns, ‘We should think of the almost 12 months ahead, for lots could happen.’ Brother Payne, ‘If we could find the will of God today, it won’t be a bit of trouble for the Holy Ghost and God’s approval to be put upon it at the Assembly. I think we are able now to make the selection.’ Brother Moxley, ‘The Assembly didn’t force us to get the man with God’s approval. I don’t feel like we ought to keep the Holy Ghost from having his way.” The Holy Ghost working mightily. Brother McDonald, ‘I suggest that we put it before us and see if we can get it together.’ Brother Wilson, ‘I say these words in respect of the Holy Ghost, for the power of God led me to the man, to lead him with a Bible in his hand, before the casket of Brother Tomlinson.” (Spanish clarification) “… Brother Tomlinson when Brother Rhodes was preaching Tuesday. But I didn’t obey. I am ready to tell you who it is when you get ready for it.’ The Holy Ghost working mightily among us. A message came, about four or five words, ‘Bring forth thy younger son.’ Brother McDonald repeats his proposition for suggestions. Brother Evans withdraws his statement of holding suggestive names for General Overseer. Brother Payne suggests that Brother Wilson tell who it is that he saw. Brother Wilson tells that Brother Milton Tomlinson is the man that God showed him to lead to the casket while Brother Rhodes was preaching. Brother Payne states that the Lord showed him to go get Brother Milton, wrap the big flag around him, and set him in his father’s chair. Clerk read the note from Brother Lawson, who suggestion that Brother Gillespie,” I’m sorry, “who suggested Brother Gillespie for General Overseer, with Brother Milton as Field Secretary, in order that Milton might get valuable experience that he needed. Brother Sullivan, ‘While Brother Rhodes was preaching, I said “I see Joshua now.” Brother Milton is a young man. The other brothers passed by before Samuel, but the younger one was selected. I feel that Brother Milton is the man.’ Brother Stafford, ‘A sinner man downtown said, “I guess Tony (Milton) will take his place.”’ Brother Shultz, ‘I have asked who I thought would be General Overseer. I was standing behind Brother Milton. He stood and met someone and, while standing, I thought, “There is the spirit of A. J. Tomlinson,” and believe it with all my heart.’ Brother Holley, ‘I have repented many times,” (Spanish clarification), “I have received many interpretations, but refused. A lady gave a message the other day, a part of which is, “I have made my will known, and it shall be carried out.”’ Brother Lowman, ‘I feel like the Lord is leading us. Before I left home, Brother Milton came before me. I said, “Brother Milton has got Brother Tomlinson’s spirit.” Brother Gillespie came before me to take his place, to go before Brother Milton. I suggest that we select the man for this year, and God will attend to it at the Assembly. I don’t think we could do any better than to let Brother Gillespie fill this office through the Assembly.’ Brother Wilson suggests that Brother Milton be put in now. Suggestion #2 by Brother Lowman is that Brother Gillespie be selected now, and Milton later. Brother Moxley, ‘The Holy Ghost will show us things to come. I feel that He has shown us things to come.’ Brother Homer speaks, ‘That’s a beautiful sight here this morning. I’m compelled to tell you this most wonderful story in connection with my brother. I’ve never seen anything so perfect. If I could’ve come here to tell you to consider my brother Milton, but it was far from me. Due, due to death, mother was unable to get the new quarterly. Milton had family prayer at the… He asked me to have the, to have family prayer with my mother.’ He took a Sunday School quarterly with the lesson, ‘The Death of Moses,’ compares that to the death of his father, mentions the daily Bible reading for Thursday, which was, ‘Joshua succeeds Moses,’ comparing that to his brother Milton. He tells of the previous night, how, how he and his brother Milton were in the same room, but, but different beds. He said he grew cold, got up and pulled down a window. Later he got up and crawled in bed with Brother Milton after Brother Milton assured him that it was plenty warm in his bed. He told this to emphasize the fact that Brother Milton was to fill his father’s place, signifying safe, safety and comfort, so long as he remained under cover with Brother Milton. He states that his work isn’t here at Headquarters, but that it is in New York. He mention the pledge he gave his father several years previous, that he would bring all nations to him. He then pledged to bring all nations to Brother Milton. He states that his work is out there. The former pledge he made to get even with Cleveland because he had felt for many years that they were mean to his father, this included many hardships, stonings, and shootings. This later pledge was different since his seeing all Cleveland bow in honor as his fathers body was borne to its final resting place. We quote, ‘Milton is the embodiment of my father’s spirit. Milton does not have an enemy in the world. There is not a spot on his life.’ Brother Evans, ‘It was made clear that Brother Homer was suggesting Brother Milton as General Overseer.’ Brother Payne tells that Brother Milton is to be recommended for bishop in the next quarterly conference. Brother Gillespie, ‘I believe I have been faithful to Brother Tomlinson. He never called me on the carpet in 35 years. I have no regrets. I’ll tell you something that’s been on my mind. I have been Brother Tomlinson’s secretary, and I believed I would be Milton’s secretary. I’d much rather. I couldn’t bear the thought of being Overseer. I had rather you put Milton in the office. He will be my superior. I’ll be just as humble as when I was before Brother Tomlinson.’ Brother Lowman withdraws suggestion #2. Brother Wilson reinstates his suggestion #1, to have Brother Milton Tomlinson fill the office of General Overseer. Milton was selected by unanimous agreement to be General Overseer from now through the General Assembly, September 13-19, 1944. Adjournment until 1:00.” The rest of this has to do with bringing Brother Milton in, and the, and the process of installing him. Do you want me to read that? Since half of you have left me (laughs), I think that gives us some good fundamental information to see how those godly men in that day worked their way through that process until they thought they, felt they had found the mind of God. And I think we’re all convinced, they did, indeed, find the mind of God. You look like you could use a break. Why don’t we take about 20 minutes, and we’ll come back together and decide, uh, uh, whether we want to go on this evening, or whether you want to wait until the morning. Unless you want to decide that now. Maybe we should decide that now. Has it got warmer in here, or is this just me?
D. Smith: (not at microphone) Since we’ve had such a break today, I’d like to continue on.
S. Smith: Continue on? Is everyone satisfied? Okay, we’ll see how far we can get. Let’s, uh, take a 20 minute break and, uh, at 5:45 we’ll begin again.
Adjourned at 5:22pm
5:48pm
S. Smith: Attencion. Attenciones (laughing).
Horne: Pay no attention to the man behind the microphone.
S. Smith: (Laughing) That’s the, I believe that’s the curtain… Uh, brethren, I’ve had quite a few people come to me during this break time, asking if we would dismiss for tonight and commit ourselves this evening to prayer and reading our Bibles. Does that sound good? Prayer and reading our Bibles, and let God speak to each of us alone. And tomorrow morning we will begin at 9:00 with one hour of prayer together. I will try to get the church building open so we could spend that hour in prayer over there where it’s more comfortable, if possible.
Lester: (not at microphone) Uh, I’ve talked to Brother Cary about that… He did not give me a, a, answer yet. If we did get in there, there would be no drinking or eating in there. If we do.
S. Smith: When we…
Lester: (not at microphone) I can find out tonight and let, and in the morning we can let you know whether it’ll be opened or not.
S. Smith: Okay, so when you arrive tomorrow morning, uh, we hope to have prayer there. If we cannot, we’ll spend that hour of prayer here.
Lester: (not at microphone) After the hour we could come back over here.
S. Smith: Yes, after the hour there we would come back over here. I’m getting excited in my spirit, how about you? Hallelujah! Hasn’t God been good to us today?
(Worship)
Hawkins: Rob Hawkins, England. I don’t know about you, but when I was listening to those minutes being read, I felt such a wonderful spirit behind it—an old fashioned Church of God spirit! With the brethren in unity, and such trust between brethren! And God doing a quick work in their midst ! And I want to be a part of that today! And I believe that we all can leave here—Whoooooo!—feeling the same way!!! Hallelujah!!!
(Brother Hawkins went for a run; much rejoicing in the Lord)
Hawkins: I feel the same way that those brethren felt back then. I love The Church of God. I’d be lost if I not, didn’t have a vision of The Church of God. And I want to see her go on. I want to go on with all of you brethren. God bless you and I love you.
(Prayer and praise by all present)
S. Smith: Hallelujah, it’s feeling good. God is getting our hearts in tune with Him, He’s getting our hearts in, in tune with one another. And with that we cannot fail. Hallelujah. Glory to God. How about if we stand. Thank God for His blessings of today, and remember tonight, your night for private prayer and reading of your Bible. And be back in the morning at 9:00. Let’s worship the Lord a little bit.
(Prayer: 5:55pm—6:03pm. Holy Ghost message and interpretation by Brother Jernigan: “Yea, Yea, I say unto thee, my brethren, I am in your midst. I will guide you. I will direct you. Stay humble before Me. I am God. I see your hearts. I know you’re sincere. I look to you today to make the right decisions, but call upon Me. Listen to me as I speak. I am about to move. I am about to work. Humble yourselves before Me. Stay low before me, for I am God. I cannot fail. I will be in your midst,” then interpreted into Spanish by Brother Castellanos; more fervent prayer and worship of the Lord)
S. Smith: Hallelujah. I believe we’re beginning to sit in heavenly places with Jesus. Hallelujah. If God’s ready for us to leave, we’ll dismiss. If, if He’s not, we’ll hang around ‘til He’s through. We want His man, in His time, done His way. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Hallelujah. Oh, hallelujah. Alright.
(Brother Aviles began singing “The Great Speckled Bird” in Spanish, then English, joined by the rest of the Presbytery)
S. Smith: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
(More worship)
Catellanos: Praise the Lord, brother.
Horne: I received a, an e-mail—James Horne—from my wife. She told me that, just confirmed how our region was praying and seeking the Lord for this meeting. And she told me of the glorious service they had Sunday morning. And I wanted to read just a little bit of what blessed her as she was praying for us.
S. Smith: Uh, just one second here. Before he goes on, uh, I know the Lord is moving and helping us. Is this a part of a sermon or something that…? I, I don’t want to be guilty of bringing something from the outside into the Presbytery, that you’d be displeased with. If you’re comfortable with what he’s sharing, uh, say so. Or if, if for some reason you feel discomfortable as he begins, you feel free to raise your hand. I, I don’t want to introduce something. Do you feel satisfied to let him share? This is not, this is not pointing out any person, is it?
Horne: No, it’s just scripture.
S. Smith: This is not pointing out any person. It’s just scripture.
Castellanos: I believe, Brother, Brother Smith, I’m comfortable. Uh, I could, I could feel the Lord in it and in, in Brother Horne, amen, and let us, let us let have the Lord have His way.
S. Smith: I feel like the Lord is in it, but I don’t want to do it against an objection. I’m sorry, Brother Horne, please…
Horne: She said that the pastor of our church in Andrews, he preached that, a message about God choosing David. He was the least likely brother for the job of being king. And he talked about how Samuel was the spiritual leader in that time, and he had opinions about which of the sons should be king. But in the end, God’s will was made known, and he heard the voice of God, and anointed the right man. God wants us to anoint the right man.
S. Smith: That’s what we call getting it right.
(Worship)
Horne: (not at microphone) Praise God, praise God. Hallelujah, hallelujah. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord.
Estep: Early, uh, after midnight some—Don Estep—early Friday morning, I believe, after midnight, I couldn’t sleep and I was praying. And the Spirit spoke to me and said we are, that the Church is on the threshold of something, of something great and powerful and that it would come as a woman bearing children. And I took that with great pain. Or I took it to mean with great pain. But that it wouldn’t be bearing anything new. But from that point we would break forth as the morning. And I just felt in my spirit I needed to share that.
S. Smith: Amen. You know, there is divine wisdom, divine knowledge, divine understanding. These are some of the operations of God’s Spirit and we’re enjoying them here right now.
Coronel: Juan Coronel. I, I want to go ahead and let you know that this…the Church that I’m overseering, where I oversee I share with my son…Brother Pruitt would not be, would not be in the Assembly. That’s what I told…a man of good courage. And I, and I told my son the mod, the moderator was going to be Brother Smith. But I had no, uh, had a, I had a fear in my heart, in my heart I have Brother Dupre. And I have a vision as well. The, the, the Assembly was in the morning. And I came to the United States, and… And I began to pray, and I asked that God would help me. Many days that I have tears from my eyes. And I began to study the Word of God. And yesterday, yesterday night, uh, I was over talk to my wife. In Argentina, they’re, they’re still praying for us, brothers. And the, and the, my, my wife let me know that on Sunday they had the service of Arise and Shine. And there was a, a manifestation, a wonderful manifestation of the Spirit of the Lord. And it said, uh, “Be at peace with yourself because God has control of all things.” I let you know, I share this also with my son, he’s, he’s an Overseer, as well. And I, and I, we give thanks to the Lord. Let, let, let us trust in the Lord, that He will have His will among our midst. Thank you, brethren.
S. Smith: Hallelujah, hallelujah. So far, so far this is the best dismissal prayer I’ve ever been in. If there’s anything more from the Lord, we want it before we leave here. Alright. I believe He’s getting us ready. God bless you. Have a good evening.
Adjourned at 6:15pm
(The Presbytery gathered in the sanctuary of the Zion Hill church building)
9:03am
S. Smith: We welcome you all back this morning. Um, I’ve been asked to make an announcement. Uh, we don’t know when the Lord will be through with us, whether it will be today or another day. Several people have come to me and said, “Brother Smith, it’s June 13th.” It would be a great honor from our Lord if this would be that day, wouldn’t it? But we’ll leave that in the Lord’s hands. Our duty is to seek His face, follow His Spirit, and when God’s ready He, He will unite our minds and hearts together. But, at whatever time we do end, uh, please don’t leave until there’s been an opportunity to get a group picture of the entire Presbytery. So keep that in mind for the end of our, of our session. This is the hour of prayer. We’re going to pray until 10:00, and seek the face of the Lord. We don’t want to spend a lot of time talking, but if someone has something you feel led to share before we go to prayer, we’ll give you that opportunity. If not, uh, it would be good to get somewhere near the front if you can. Get a good comfortable place, and let’s seek God. Hallelujah.
(Prayer: 9:05am—10:04am)
S. Smith: Are you feeling good in your soul? Feel like you’ve got your spirit conquered, where God will be free to do what He wants to do? I’d like to do a couple of things before we go back over. Uh, last night we spent time reading our Bibles and in private prayer with God. And I’m wondering if any, if the Lord has laid some scripture upon someone’s heart, or maybe even during this prayer this morning God has shared something with you that you’d like to read from God’s Word that might give us some help. I think Brother Wilda’s trying to find one here. Am I right, brother? I want you to share it, brother. Do you need a Spanish Bible to…
Wilda: This is in Titus, the 2nd chapter. “But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience” (vv.1,2). The other pertains to the women, but I’d go down to the 6th verse. It says, “Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee” (vv.6-15).
S. Smith: Amen. Thank the Lord for His Word. Someone else?
Acosta: Uh, the word that Brother Jer-, uh, Wilda brought, uh, brings to our remembrance that we, we were talking last night to Brother Caleb, talking about this day today. I spoke to Brother Caleb with all my heart, that we would have to ask the Lord today that God would give us a man. That God would give us a man that would know all the things of the, of, of God and to honor His doctrine. Uh, be a, be a man with all the requirements of a bishop. And that’s what Brother, uh, Wilda was reading. Uh, the, the, the Word of God, uh, a man that’s firm, a man that’s val-, valiant. Uh, we were also talking, I want to say this here, in Honduras, uh, before we came here, uh, the United States, uh, we were, uh, preaching about David and Saul. Uh, God is working everything together very well. There are two names that I want to mention: David and Saul. Uh, the name, uh, the translation of the name means (Spanish clarification), uh, preferred of God. And, and the name of Saul, uh, uh, uh, means, uh, uh, uh, desired. God is not going to give us desires with, with, without necessities. He’s not going to put in, in office the man that we desire, only the man that’s nec-, nec-, uh, needed. And I, I, I, I, it blesses me to know that David, uh, he did not come in without experience, without experience. The Bible says that he was full of the Holy Ghost, even before he was elected. That, that God, uh, demonstrated to him or shown him the structure of the temple. He was not only going to, uh, came in to sing. He was, uh, seeing the structure of the, uh, of, of the building, of the temple. The marvelous thing is the devil respected David, even before he was king. We desire for God to bless His Church, uh, give, give unto the Church the man that’s necessary.
D. Smith: Brother Smith, the scripture that’s been upon my mind for the past few days, 2 Chronicles, chapter 20. The enemy surrounded Jehoshaphat, and they set themselves to seek the Lord. Then the Bible said upon Jahaziel came the Spirit of God. Before he spoke, the Spirit came. And we need this to be a day of the Spirit. We need this to be a day of the Holy Ghost. (Worship) Before we speak, the Spirit must come. (Worship) And God said, You’re not going to have to lift a finger in this battle. I’m going to give you the victory! And I feel like God’s going to give us the victory.
(Worship)
S. Smith: Brothers, we don’t have anything else to do now, but find our way from where we’re at to, to the time that God shows us who He’s chosen for this. I’m a little bit afraid to, to break the spirit and go back over there just yet. If there’s another scripture to be read, God’s moving on a heart, let’s just take our time and be obedient to the Lord. Got one to read? Please, please.
Aviles: Brother Jose.
S. Smith: To read this?
Aviles: Get the scripture, brother, in English. Get the scripture in English, please. The scripture that, uh, my brother reads here.
S. Smith: 2 Chronicles 7:14,15. I have it here already.
Aviles: Oh, can you read it?
S. Smith: Oh, if you’ve got it, no, that’s fine. If you’ve, go right ahead. You go right ahead.
Pimentel: Bless you all, brethren. We’re going to go here and, uh read from the Holy Word. Um 2 Chronicles, um, chapter7, verse 14 and 15. Um, correct me, 13-15. “If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves [shall humble themselves], and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then they will, [then will] I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their, [I will hear their] land land. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.” God bless you.
Lester: Brothers? Brothers, as I was praying the Lord showed me, said, “I have the man, and I will present him when all of our, your hearts are right.”
S. Smith: Glory.
Aviles: Glory to God, hallelujah.
S. Smith: When Brother Acosta began to speak, he immediately mentioned Saul and David. And just as I was finishing up my prayers, my eyes fell on this passage. I don’t know what it will mean to us, but I feel like God, I feel like God would have me share it with you. This is 1 Chronicles, chapter 11, beginning in verse 1. Okay, we need it in Spanish, too, please. 1 Chronicles 11. “Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. And moreover [even] in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel. Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the LORD; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the LORD by Samuel.” Verse 9, “So David waxed greater and greater: for the LORD of hosts was with him.” Amen.
Neal: I’d like to read a Scripture from 1st Corinthians, the 2nd chapter, and the 2nd verse. “For [I am, for] I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
Estep: I want to read a scripture in Titus, chapter 2. “But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine.” I’m sorry, I’m reading, uh, uh, I need to read, uh,… Titus 2, but I think Brother Wilda already read that one…
S. Smith: Take your time, brother.
Estep: I thought I had it there, but that’s the wrong one.
S. Smith: The one of the bishop, uh, being blameless and all that?
Estep: …I don’t want to waste time, if I find it then I’ll come back later.
S. Smith: Titus 3:2
Estep: Is that where it is?
S. Smith: I believe it is.
Estep: Titus 3:2, I’m sorry for taking up your time. “Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of [our, of] God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself” (vv.2-11). And I want to read one in Corinthians. 2 Corinthians 5:20. 2 Corinthians 5, verse 20, “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye [be ye] reconciled to God.” And I’ll read verse 21, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Estep. That was good. Anyone else feel like that you’ve heard from the Lord, would like to share to with us?
Carr: Brother Smith…went home—or, back to the room last night—and prayed and opened the Word of God. And I had a good feeling when I left here yesterday. I rejoiced in the Lord and cried and wept that God has got the man. The scriptures the Lord gave me last night…it’s in Proverbs, chapter 16, beginning at verse 1-3, and verse 6. “The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits. Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.” Verse 6, “By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.”
Nainggolan: As I read the Word of God last night, the Lord speak to my heart… Ephesians, chapter, chapter 4, verse 24… “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil.” Skip down to 32, “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.” And I go to the chapter 5, verse 21, “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.” Thank you.
S. Smith: Thank you, brother.
Wilda: (not at microphone) Beautiful, beautiful.
S. Smith: Brother Forbes, yes.
Forbes: There’s uh, there’s a scripture that I read while at home. While I was sitting at the airport in Charlotte…it came to my mind again. And yesterday…sitting in the meeting it came to my mind again. And last night I was reading it again. It’s in, it’s in Luke, chapter 3, from verses 6-9. It says, “And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able [to, is able] of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” But verse 9 is the center verse. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth [forth, which bringeth] not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” And I believe this morning…
Castellanos: I would like to read a scripture, too.
S. Smith: Please.
Castellanos: In the book of Micah, verse 6.
Voice: Repeat it, brother.
S. Smith: Micah.
Castellanos: Micah. The book of Micah, chapter 6, verse 8… Do you have it? Do you want to read it in English?
S. Smith: Yeah. “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” Brother…is there anyone else?
Castellanos: Brother Grant.
S. Smith: Yes, please. Folks, the Lord is speaking to us and let’s just, let’s take our time. I don’t think there’s any more powerful way for God to speak but right here, through His Word.
Grant: 1 Kings, the 1st chapter. A few nights ago, the Lord woke me up and showed me some things. And, then the next night, He woke me up and showed me some more things. And I want to say that I thought I had it figured out—and I still want to be careful—I don’t want to feel like I got it figured out if I don’t. I know there’s some things that God has for us in this. 1 Kings, 1:1 says, “Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.” We love our previous General Overseer, but, for all practical purposes, he’s dead—yet he hadn’t left this world. And we like the resurrection, if I can say it that way for a minute, because we know God gave him to us, and God had a purpose in giving him to us. And God knew what would happen, and that he would come to the place that he is. And yet, God knowing that, He still gave us Bishop Pruitt. And sometimes I’m glad I’m in Alaska where I don’t know what’s going on down here, and other times I wished I was here. But the main thing is, I want to be with God. And I want to know from Him—let’s go to verse 5, “Then Adonijah the son of Haggith exalted himself, saying, I will be king: and he prepared him chariots and horsemen, and fifty men to run before him.” And I want to confess that when God showed me this, at first I felt like that among us, somebody was going to raise up and say, “I will be king.” And it really troubled me, because we cannot have another, another, uh, whatever you want to call it, another disaster like we had once before. And that’s the reason that I have been so strong in saying I cannot and I will not submit unless the Holy Ghost comes down and gives to us what we need! ...we know that it is Him! Verse 8, “But Zadok the priest, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and Nathan the prophet, and Shimei, and Rei, and the mighty men which belonged to David, were not with Adonijah.” And if you read the rest of this story you find that was another camp. These men who were doing that, did not call, God’s men—David’s mighty men—did not call these five men. So this not in our camp. God showed me that the next night. Let’s go to verse 34, “And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye [the trumpet, blow ye] with the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon.” And verse 38, “So Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, went down, and caused Solomon to ride upon king David's mule, and brought him to Gihon. And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon. And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.” And when God anoints our next General Overseer, we are going to rejoice with great joy. We are going to know that it is God who has done what He has done. And verse 49, the scripture says, “And all the guests that were with Adonijah were afraid, and rose up, and went every man his way. And Adonijah feared because of Solomon, and arose, and went, and caught hold on the horns of the altar” (v.50). Those that are not a part of what God’s doing, are going to find themselves falling at the altar and begging for mercy. And if it’s not for the mercy of God, none of us have any hope, or have any help, but only when God is with us and for us, and we be what He wants us to be! Brother Castellano, God is going to go on to perfection! He is going to do what needs to be done! And He… Hallelujah! …all the scriptures that I’ve got, but I want to say just two things, if I can. God, help me only say two. Solomon came to a place where he was confronted and he was tested with, with two and had, no one knew who was telling the truth…but God gave to Solomon the wisdom to know what was the truth, and God settled it with Solomon! And God is going to settle it…! (Prayer and praising) God is going to… (more prayer and praise)… Have Your way. The General Overseer will be compassionate. And I believe we’re giving him the opportunity to prove himself, and we each, we must prove ourselves to be men of God! Hallelujah. And I’ll stop there. Thank you for your time.
S. Smith: Hallelujah. Let’s take a minute and worship the Lord, folks.
(Prayer and worship)
S. Smith: I refuse to get in a hurry this morning. Brother Aviles can you help me a little here. I don’t want to get in a hurry this morning. I don’t know if we need to talk about some procedures, or if we need to ask God to begin to direct us to the one that He’s chosen. I’m not sure what we need to do. But I feel like the Lord would have me do one thing. I think He wants us to sing this little song that says, “Bind us together with cords that cannot be broken.” And I’d like us to get up around the front where we can hold hands. Hallelujah. Bind us together, Lord! Bind us together. This is special. Let’s stay with it.
(The Presbytery gathered at the front of the sanctuary and joined hands and began to pray and worship the Lord; after some time of prayer and praise, Brother Aviles led the men in singing, “Bind Us Together”)
S. Smith: Let’s give the Lord a little bit more time here. I know He’s working and doing some things.
(A few more moments of prayer)
S. Smith: In 1943—oh, I’m sorry. Alright, let’s do it. Let’s sing.
(More praying and worship, then “I Surrender All” in Spanish and English together, then the African brothers sang it in their languages; there was a beautiful and worshipful spirit working among the brethren as they praised the Lord with the same song in several other different languages)
S. Smith: It sounds good in every language, doesn’t it?
(More singing)
Lester: Brother Smith, I want to say something. Would you interpret for me, brother? I want to say that I don’t, I love everybody here. We’ve had some difference of opinions. You have your views and I have mine. But I want you to, I want you to know, uh, I’m asking you to forgive me for any indifferences we may have. When I was in the shower this morning, I told God, “There’s none of us too big that God can’t bring us down.” And I, for one, I want everything out of my heart…said as Brother Grant has said, I want the Holy Ghost. And as I said a while ago, God showed me that He had the man. I don’t know who it is. If you know who it is, you’re better off than I am. But He also showed me that when we get our, all of our hearts—not just 99 and a half, 100%—everything out, and not have our own agenda, that He will, He’ll bring the man that we, that everybody should accept…
Coronel: I would like to, uh, say something, uh, it very possibly will help me. In, uh, the year 1990, uh, I decided to, to, to, leave Argentina… They also knew that they… I, I am a leader. I know that I, I, I work…and I’ve worked for God. And my, my, my, my responsibility is to speak the truth, and to teach the truth….
Coronel: And I was not in accord with what’s, what’s happened…convictions in my heart, that this was not the Church. I did not want to accept it. I suffered very, uh, uh, I suffered very much because I could not understand why these things were happening…and I continue to suffer because of situations that was going on… And I have, uh, spoken with a lot of officials, uh, from that time on. I, I, I told them, “Don’t stop me from speaking the truth. Because I’m not going to stop speaking the truth.” I was in Phoenix, Arizona for a week… God speaks to my heart and He tells me, uh, “Get out from amongst them. Uh, don’t touch the, the evil thing. Because the new wine cannot be, uh, uh, in old, in old, uh bottles.” …And he says, “You’re going to take his place… “That’s fine.” I had that opportunity to preach. There was a lot… General Headquarters Officials… I preached a message that I, I, I titled, uh, “Maintaining Our Identity.” That was the last time that I preached in Arizona. Then I began to feel the persecution. Then I put myself in communication with Brother Pruitt. Uh, I didn’t have no conviction about…the people were that were called the Concerned. I believed that God was working His will in, in, not only in the Church, but, but the servants of, of, of… His servants. And I’m telling you this because in reality I feel in my heart. I don’t have, I don’t know who is the Overseer. And I’m saying in my heart, “Lord, I don’t feel nothing…” Acts, uh, chapter 15, in that business session…uh, James was the mod, the moderator. And there was two big problems in that, uh, or that… There was some, uh, false teaching going on in the Church. There was, uh, the problems of the Gent-, uh, the Gentiles, because at that time the Church was Jewish and, uh, Gentiles were coming into the Church. Uh, that was, uh, two big problems were being handled…the General Overseer, which was James, the apostles… Paul, and the elders of the Church… And James said…that they had turn away…it seemed like to us, the Church, and to the apostles, and to the elders, and the Holy Ghost. And what I want to say, brothers, like Brother Grant said this morning, if I don’t feel nothing in my heart, like Brother Grant said this morning, if the Holy Ghost doesn’t, uh, touch my heart and I don’t feel nothing, I will also not submit. But I want to say this. We need to be…work together, to let the Lord… His will in our lives. I want to surrender all to him. And you all feel for someone, I also want to feel for… And if we can get to that point where we’re in one accord with the Holy Ghost…the General Assembly will be no problem… But it would be very sad for us, brethren, if the, uh, General Assembly did not feel what we feel. That’s why we need, uh, in reality we need a, a, a total unity, that every one of us would be able to surrender to God, that the Holy Ghost would make us feel the same, uh, in a unanimous voice together…this great responsibility… The, the, the, Church is not Argentina. It’s not American…confusion outside… The people, are, they have expectations. They don’t know what’s going on. And I want to speak to you sincerely. I want to do the will of the Lord… I want to feel right with Him. I don’t want to do nothing that will offend my God, because I fear Him. I fear the Lord. I believe you pray for me as I pray for you. I love every Overseer because I know what they suffer, I know what they go through, and the responsibility that’s upon them. I, I, I, I haven’t been an Overseer for one day. I have gone through too many things. But I have my trust in the Lord…there was, uh, a message in tongues and the interpretation was—somebody had the interpretation—there, that’s, that’s the fear that I had, there was somebody that was fearful to give that message and that, and we don’t need to be fearful… But if there…a message in tongues, there will be interpretations. Somebody had the interpretation. And that’s an important thing, that we prepare our hearts—that’s the principal thing that we must do. There are…that you can feel for someone, and then you could tell us who it is. And the Holy Ghost will confirm that in every one of us, in every one of our hearts…a, a, a message in tongues, that the Holy Ghost would, would, would…get a hold of his heart…that we all, we could feel the same thing. That’s why we need to prepare ourselves, because He has the man. I don’t know who he is. But God has him and He wants…
S. Smith: I’d like to ask us to do something right now. During the past three days, we’ve had struggles, we’ve had strong emotions. And before we take this step to ask God to reveal His choice, I want to make certain that we’ve got our hearts right with one another. Now, I want to say that if we have a problem with anyone outside this building, during the prayer we’re fixing to have, make a commitment in your heart that when we’re finished you’re going to go to that person and seek reconciliation. But right now during this prayer, if you think there’s anyone in this room that you may have offended, or that may have offended you—or if you’re not sure, but maybe you feel a wall between the two of you—I want us to have a prayer and during this time let’s, let’s, let’s get our conscience clear with one another. Let’s pray right now.
(The brethren prayed, then sang, “I Surrender All” again, followed by, “Cleanse Me”)
(The brethren prayed, then sang, “I Surrender All” again, followed by, “Cleanse Me”)
NOTE: The following two comments from Brother Pimentel and Brother Cannon were taken directly from the clerk’s notes, since the recording was missed. This technical error was caught just as Brother Estep started speaking, and that is where the audio picks up again.
Pimentel: I feel the Lord with us here and our decision should be as Presbytery. He should have our hearts at His disposal… There was a message that Felix Garcia preached about digging our own holes… It’s time… I want you to know… I love this nation… God has given this nation the privilege for the prophecy to be fulfilled of the great eagle with divers colors…planted there in the U.S.… The Church of God of every nation, kindred and tongue…this is The Church of God! God Bless you!
Cannon: Brothers, I feel the least among you, but I feel that this is owed to the Presbytery… As you know, my name has been on the internet many times. You never heard anything from me on it… There has been comments that I was a liar, thief, out to take property. I received a phone call asking me to appear before Brother Pruitt, in that meeting to be interim overseer of Indiana and Ohio. I was not seeking it… I was not wanting that position…but I had to be obedient to the Lord… I accepted it. Brother Pruitt and Brother Nabors anointed me with oil and prayed over me and spoke straight… I left there very humbled… I had to make visits into Ohio and Indiana…wrote letters, calls, and in one trip drove over 1900 miles…went in the churches and begged them to be obedient to the Overseer…all I could get was that we love Brother Pruitt, but we will not recognize the appointment, and will not send money to Headquarters… I begged to them to work out problems…they forced me to do the work of the Presbytery. If they wanted to stay with the Church, they would have to submit…but they signed pacts to follow Danny Carter…blocked calls… I tried and tried to call folks and called the phone company and was told that the phone was blocked or disconnected… I asked Brother Nabors to go with me to go to Ashland, Ohio and the people would not show… I came back and went there again, they would not show up at meetings… I went into the churches, the pastors would jump up before I could say anything and say that, we are not receiving you. I was not there to hurt them…but to get them to line up… I’m speaking from my heart… I don’t know how else to help…it’s false…we want them to have their property and win the lost to Christ… I feel like this body of men need to know this… I will make it right with you because I want to go to heaven and I declare that I did nothing out of line, but if I have… The Church of God is my life and I will lay down my life for it, brothers. I thought you needed to know…these folks refused to obey the General Overseer and there is one thing for them to do…repent, make restitution, and come back… I will make restitution… I have tried to be a man of truth and integrity… God Bless you.
Estep: …I’m the other, I guess, the other part or half of that situation Brother Cannon’s… I have nothing in my heart against anyone here. And I would rather the Lord take me on, at this very instant, than to hurt The Church of God. I have believed in this—Church of God—since I was a very little boy. I believe I had a vision of the Church at 5 years old. Of course, I didn’t understand about, everything about it. And perhaps I don’t, even now. But she is my life. I have been very ill for about 12 years. Um, let me rephrase that. I was very ill for about 12 years. Three years ago I left the General Assembly with pneumonia, spent 11 days in the hospital, was, was diagnosed with TB. And the doctor told me to not worry. So, what do you do when a doctor says don’t worry and you have TB? I didn’t worry. He said, “I believe we’ll get a miracle.” And I was told last Monday that my lungs were clearer than the doctor ever seen. I was told I had a, um, an aneurism, or a, or a, uh, ulcer in the aorta of my heart in 1998. And if I sneezed hard it would burst. And two years ago, I left the Convention—our Regional Convention—and I had a heart attack the next morning. Four days later I had a second heart attack. Spent 30 hours with my blood pressure no more than 56 over 40. And my heart rate was 27. I was near death. Spent two months in the hospital, several months in a wheelchair, and then on a walker. But God came. God came. I could not even get in the pulpit. My, my brothers in the Church would have to get me up in the pulpit. The anointing would come, and I could act like a teenager. When the anointing died off, they had to help me out of the pulpit. I couldn’t drive 15 miles. But this year, I have averaged 3,500-4,100 miles per month. I have preached three revivals in a row, back to back. And I feel like I could preach to you now, but that’s not appropriate. I said that to say, I thought it was over. And I know some of you told me the same when you seen me in the Assembly two years ago in a wheelchair. Brother, one brother told me, he said, “Poor Brother Estep. It’s pretty much over for him.” But God had something else in mind. And I have worked for God this year. And I have fought the enemy. But I want you to understand who my enemy is. The Word of God says, “While men slept, an enemy came, and he sowed tares.” Those who have opposed me, those who have opposed me this year are not my enemy. They are not the one who sewed the tares, they are not the one who caused the problems. But an enemy has done it. I had no enemy today. I have not fought. I have had many things said about me. The last website that I heard about—and I hesitate to share this, but just to let you know how bad it’s got—the website stated, “The rumor is that Don Estep, I, is bisexual, lean, leans toward homosexual, also a womanizer, and many other bad things.” I am not going to sling mud with people. I am not going to get in the trenches and share those kinds of things with people. I have not done it. I have not fought them back. I have not, unto this day, made any kind of plea or defense against myself. I have simply preached the Word of God. God has blessed us. We have lost 4 church properties. I don’t know the exact number of membership. But when you receive letters into your office telling you that I am no longer affiliated with The Church of God, first of all it breaks your heart. Because that’s your brother that’s telling you that. And when they refuse to receive phone calls or visits, and they sign letters saying that, “We no longer recognize General Headquarters,”—and did you know General Headquarters includes the General Overseer’s office? And these letters stated that. “We want no information shared about our people, or any ministers in our local church. We re-, we re-, we reject General Headquarters. We reject Don Estep as Regional Overseer. There will be no funds, no reports from us.” And they sign a letter, “We are no longer affiliated with you.” What do you do? You try to save them. That’s what I’ve done. I’ve done my best by letter and only two people would talk to me at all. Only, the only thing one would talk about, is he called and asked me to resign. “If you don’t resign, there’ll be a great split in the Church.” How could I resign? The General Overseer appointed me. If I’d have resigned, I’d have gone against theocratic government. When Brother Pruitt contacted me, he said, “Is your health so that you can get back on the field?” I said, “The health doesn’t matter. The important thing is, if God speaks to you and tells you to appoint me, if I’m in the hospital, I still have to accept it.” I was more afraid of bowing out of that appointment than running from man. Uh, I was called to Cleveland to answer accusations against me, and I answered them properly and favorably with the General Overseer. The General Overseer personally said to me, “I know beyond any doubt, the Holy Ghost told me to do what I done, to split that region and appoint you as Overseer of Kentucky and Southern Illinois.” I said, “Sir, that’s all I, all I want to hear. If the Holy Ghost told you that, then I accept that.” And I still accept it. I don’t want to say too much. But I feel that there are that, that there are those among us, at least possibly so, that have appoint, that, uh, have a problem with my appointment. I feel that there are those, possibly, that feel like the General Assembly business of 2005 needs to be rescinded, including the appointments. And I have a letter here from a fellow bishop, to whom I love dearly, and it states that. I’ll try to find it quickly so I can read it to you. “Since our Overseer’s debilitating illness began its insidious,”—I hope you can interpret that.
Aviles: No, I can not, I can’t interpret that.
Estep: “It’s destruction long, long before your …
(Spanish clarification)
Estep: I think some of us… I don’t know. “Since our Overseer’s,”—I’m sorry, please forgive me. “Since our Overseer’s de-, debilitating illiness, illness began it’s insidious destructive, destruction long before it being diagnosed, many of his decisions are even now more suspected. All appointments made at the 2005 Assembly, and those since the General Assembly, should be restricted, be rescinded, and the Alabama confusion revisited.” There are some things that cannot be prayed away, nor shouted out. And this letter was sent out to some bishops and Overseers around the country. Now, I don’t know how many of you received one, and I’m not going to ask you. And there was another let-, letter that was sent, that one, I might say was sent by Bishop Dewberry. And there’s another portion also, I must say, before, talked about wholesale disbanding and, and, uh, disfellowshipping of membership. And let me finish this letter before I go on to the other one. Brother Dewberry, did you ever call me about any of this?
Dewberry: No.
Estep: You never did call me, did you? I’m just saying our people have hurt this year. We have lost 4 church properties. I have a letter in my file from the attorney of the former Overseer of this region, to sue me in the courts of the land for more than $12,000 back salary. And when the region split on September 30th, it divided according to the General Overseer’s mandate and appointments, the region was to divide the funds. We did not receive a penny. He already has all the money, yet he’s wanting to sue me for $12,000 back pay. And the only reason I bring this up, is some of you has supported his rebellion. That’s wrong, my brothers. Not one of you contacted me to see if I was hurting, or to see if any of my membership was hurting. Not one. I was not questioned by Brother Dewberry about the facts of these churches being disbanded, nor the memberships being dis-, disfellowshipped. I only acted as a response for what they did. I pleaded with them, “Please sit down with me.” Over and over I pleaded. I have registered letters on my file, pleading with them to call me. “Let me visit you, or you come here, and let’s talk about it.” One of the two people that did call me, his only statement was, “I called to tell you that I will not accept your administration or your appointment.” And I said, “Would, would, would, would you not,” I said, “Is there a reason?” He said, “No, no reason.” I said, “Well, wouldn’t you like to talk about it?” He said, “No.” I said, “Would not that be the biblical thing to do?” He said, “It might be, but that’s not what I’m going to do.” And I know I need to make this brief, quick. The other letter came from Bishop Smith, Dewayne Smith. And this was very, uh, uh, just on a small, uh, uh, referral to our region and the fact that there was, uh, no compassion. And if I’m not remembering correct, I will certainly apologize. And Brother Smith, did you call—did you send a letter like that?
D. Smith: I don’t recall sending a letter to you.
Estep: Yeah, I did get one from you. It came from your address…
Castellanos: Wait a minute, sir.
D. Smith: From my address?
Estep: From your address.
D. Smith: I’d like to see that.
Estep: I don’t have it with me, but I, I, I should be, be sure you get it. Let me say, the only reason—
Castellanos: Let me translate that.
Estep: Let me say, the only reason that I am bringing this up, is I want Brother Smith and Brother Dewberry and I, and anyone else here, that may feel this way, to be able to settle this between us today, Brother Smith and Brother Dewberry. I love you brethren. And I don’t want to leave here with any doubt in my heart. See, I have not heard from you all. And in a, at the least, the human side of me would wonder about why this happened. I just, I think we need a perfect unity when we leave here, and it can’t be perfect with us three brothers having any kind of feeling… Or, or even a, a wonder about the other. Does that make sense to you all…?
S. Smith: Can I take—let me…
Estep: Okay.
S. Smith: I don’t think the rest of us need to be involved in this reconciliation.
Dewberry: Correction…
Castellanos: Give me one second. I’m sorry, Brother Dewberry.
S. Smith: He’s, he’s interpreting.
Castellanos: Go ahead, brother.
Dewberry: We have discussed this. I told him I’d like to see the letter before we—I have not sent him a letter. He got a letter from somewhere and I’d like to look at the letter before we…
S. Smith: Okay. What I’d like—here, here’s what we’re going to do, brethren. The rest of us are going to take a break and go to the other building. Just, just one moment.
Voices: …
S. Smith: Excuse me just a moment, I’m going to give Brother Dupre the floor for a moment.
Estep: I’ll do as you, whatever you say…
S. Smith: Okay, we’re sorting, we’re sorting through it here. Let’s take a minute.
Voices: …
Dupre: Uh, I, I feel a sadness in my spirit, uh, because I love all of these brethren. And all of you in this Presbytery know that I don’t mind speaking my mind if my, I feel my thinking is based upon good, solid, biblical principals. I do, now, believe that the Holy Ghost has been grieved because brethren have taken personal feelings toward each other, and have publicly revealed it before the Presbytery. I appreciate our chairman for stepping up and stopping this. Uh, some of you now have been made to feel that—others, who have not writ-, written any letters—may have feelings against these brethren. And I, for one, feel that neither one of these brethrens could say that about myself, or probably about anybody else without suspicions. That, that, that’s what was opened up to the minds of the Presbytery, based on two personal letters, the rest of us stateside Overseers have been brought under suspicion. Brother Estep knows I don’t feel that way about him. I’ve opened up, I’ve welcomed him in open arms into my region to hold revivals. I, I, I again say that I appreciate our chairman for recognizing this is personal business from the brethren, and should not be aired out to the Presbytery. And if you differ with me, I’m sorry, but I, I strongly believe that. It’s an offense to the Presbytery. And I hope these three brethren can get this worked out.
Estep: Could I ask for forgiveness?
S. Smith: Very, very quickly. Please.
Estep: …not my intention…please forgive me…
S. Smith: Now, I believe, brethren, that all three of you are men of God. And men of God can work it out, and you can ask forgiveness of each other—and I mean from the heart—and get this healed up. I don’t want to try to fix this in front of the whole Presbytery. If you’ve got something you feel like you’ve got to say, I’d rather, I’d rather ya’ll do this alone. Is that alright? Yes, sir.
D. Smith: In defense of what he said, the only letter that I ever recall sending out to Brother Estep was a copy of a letter that was sent to the Counseling Committee and the General Overseer. Is that correct?
Voices: …
D. Smith: …the reason I done that was a response of a letter that was sent to the Overseers concerning that. So, since he said that before you, I want to correct that before you.
S. Smith: Here’s, here’s what we’ll do. Uh, we’re going to dismiss, and I’d like you three brethren to get together. I know you could make public testimony—uh, uh, public apologies, here—but it can be much more heart to heart when you’re together alone. I want, I want the three of you to sort through that and get it all right, to where you can come back and testify to the rest of us that we’ve got it taken care of. Are you willing to do that?
Dewberry: These brethren need to know the reason for the letter, who the let, the letter was to is not concerning Brother Cannon, nor Brother Estep, from my viewpoint…
S. Smith: Alright, we—
Dewberry: I have heard calls and, and calls from all over—not just that particular area. I, I have pastored many years, I have had to disband churches…but the volume that was, that was being disbanded…people we were losing, that’s what I was concerned about. And, and I was in hopes that we, the Overseers, could get a hold of Headquarters and stop that spirit of force and threat, that’s what I was concerned about…
Estep: We were not...a threat, brother.
Voices: …
S. Smith: Okay. We’ve had, alright, thank you, brother.
Estep: …needs to be between us.
S. Smith: Okay.
Dewberry: We’ve heard these foreign Overseers and others talk about what’s going on…
Castellanos: Uh, Brother Dewberry, give me, give one second. Uh, I know you want to say it. Go right ahead.
Dewberry: The correspondence, you heard that mentioned…uh, so that was my concern—it certainly wasn’t Brother Cannon and Brother Estep that I was…
S. Smith: Okay, thank you.
Dewberry: … So that, it wasn’t that…convey it to the right source, and according to them…nothing personal.
S. Smith: I know it’s not and, and, and this is something for you three to get worked out. Brethren, this Presbytery has one job. The General Assembly has not appointed us to resolve the internal problems of The Church of God. We’ve been appointed by, uh, by the Assembly to find a General Overseer to serve from now until the Assembly. And when we reconvene, we’re going to try to get back in that spirit that we’ve already felt a few times. And the next time we get in that spirit, we’re not going to leave it again until the Lord finishes. So, while we’re, we’re going to take a break—we’re not taking lunch—but the rest of us will go over here. If you brethren can’t get this worked out, let me know and I’ll get with you, but I think you can. And I know we’re going to get it fixed, but then when we come back we’re going to do what God wants us to do.
D. Smith: Brother Smith, with all due respect, there seems to be the thought in this that I’ve got something against him. I don’t have anything against him.
S. Smith: Brethren, I—
Estep: That’s all I was wanting to find out…
S. Smith: I understand.
D. Smith: If I did, I would’ve come to you a while ago. I did with Brother Wilda and me and him, we worked things out, didn’t we, Brother Wilda?
Wilda: Absolutely.
Estep: That’s all I want.
D. Smith: I don’t have anything against you.
Estep: That’s, that’s all I wanted.
S. Smith: Okay! Brethren, you three, please, have a good prayer, get it worked out… And the rest of us, let’s go to the other building and, uh, take, take a few minutes break. We’ll pray and seek the Lord and let God help us. We will stay there.
Adjourned
12:56pm
S. Smith: Alright, I think we have everyone back. I hope you’re refreshed a little bit. Uh, we want to begin again with prayer. We want to get back the spirit that we have felt a few times. And, uh, if we can get where we need to be in the Spirit of the Lord, uh, God’s ready to speak to us. God’s not delaying this. God’s ready. And, uh, the enemy of our souls would like to distract us or get us on other issues, but if we can get our hearts on this one thing that the Lord’s Church has asked us to do, I believe the Lord will bring us in harmony, and we’re going to be able to do that. So why don’t we stand and let’s have a good prayer and open our hearts up to God…
(Prayer: 12:27pm—12:29pm)
S. Smith: Amen. Amen. You can be seated. Uh, Brother, uh, Estep and Brother Dewberry and Brother Smith, would you stand and, have you brethren got everything took care of alright? Feel good in your hearts with each other? I don’t mean just here, but I mean… Okay. I appreciate you brothers.
(Worship and Prayer)
S. Smith: Hallelujah. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. Glory to God. Thank you, Jesus. I’d like to read a scripture here from John, chapter 17, verse 20. The scripture says—and this is the, the prayer of our Savior, “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one” (vv.20-22). The world doesn’t believe this can happen. Other Christians doesn’t believe this can happen. But God’s going to prove that it can happen. And it will happen. It doesn’t happen in an instant, it takes a process. We’re seeing that here in this Presbytery meeting. We’ve taken very small steps. But I would rather take little, small steps like a baby and keep my balance, than to take a big leap and fall and get hurt. I’m fully convinced that what God has promised, He is able to perform. And I believe we can be in one mind, in one accord. And if Jesus can bring the power to cause His people all over the world to become one, then He can certainly, on a much smaller scale, accomplish that right here in this little room, can’t He? We want to let Him do that. I’d like to, well, let me ask you first, uh, has everyone in this room cleared your conscience with everyone else in this room? If you have not, I want you to get with that person and go off alone until you can get that done. But if you’ve got…interpreters excepted (laughter). They can take care of their conscience later—we need them (laughter). Everybody’s satisfied? You don’t feel you’ve got anything against anybody else? Don’t feel anybody’s got anything against you? I know there are, maybe, situations beyond this room. The day that I was praying to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I had sought the Lord for a long time and I couldn’t break through. And God brought to my mind someone I had offended. They were a couple of hundred miles away. I couldn’t make it right at that moment. But when God brought that to my heart, immediately I said, “Lord, I’ll go make it right.” And when I made that promise to God, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I received the baptism. And it was, uh, several weeks later that I had the next opportunity to see that man. And the Holy Ghost reminded me of my promise, and I made it right. So I want to remind you, if there is someone beyond this room, make that commitment, make that commitment to get it right between you and them, and when we’re finished, be sure you follow up and do it. In the 1943 minutes that we have read, uh, there were two recommendations that were made. Those recommendations were discussed. I’m sure those that made them felt very strongly that the Lord was dealing with them about the one they wanted to present. And the right thing to do was, was to present that to the Presbytery. Let the Presbytery discuss it, pray and seek God, see if God would bring them to a unanimous agreement. We could do something similar here. Take two or three recommendations, pray and discuss those possibilities, and see if God will bring us to unity. Does anyone have a suggestion of a, of a better way? And by the way, we’ll be open to the Lord to move and do something any time He wants. We’re not trying to restrict the Holy Ghost, but somehow create a channel through which, in our finite understanding, He can function. And that is a, uh, as I understand it, a similar way to the way it was done in ’43. Would anyone have any objections to that, or feel that you’ve got a better way? Alright. Are we in a condition that we could consider doing that, or do we need to sing some more songs? (Laughs) I’d like to sing one more song before we do it, I, can we do it? How about, there’s a song that just says, “Oh, how I love Jesus, because He first, because He first loved me.” You can sit or stand, whichever one you want. But just to get a little closer in tune with the Lord, let’s sing this song.
(Brother Aviles led the Presbytery in singing “Oh, How I Love Jesus;” Brother Horne led “Wonderful Peace”)
S. Smith: We’ll let you be seated.
Bañuelos: God bless you, brothers. I am thrilled when I worship the Lord. I love the working of the Spirit, uh, when it’s working in The Church of God. José Bañuelos, Mexico. Uh, chapter 13, uh, of John, uh, verse 35. I feel that I am the least of, uh, to be here. I know, uh, some good brethren. I don’t know every one of you. But I know good brethren from The Church of God. I admire you for the work you do. I, I, I feel like they need to take a little bit more time in, in, in, in how God uses them when they speak. Uh, uh, the people from Mexico, uh, you know, the people from Central and South America, uh, when they hear or mention some names from the General Headquarters, uh, they, they, they esteem them very well. Uh, Hermano Pruitt—Brother Pruitt, Brother Nabors, Brother Ard. Uh, some of those that are known in Mexico, when they know that I’m, um, coming to General Headquarters and they know that I’m going to see them, they love you a whole lot. They always tell me, “Greet my brethren. When you come over here, you tell them, tell them to come and visit us in Mexico.” They, they, they esteem them very highly, of all the brethren at General Headquarters, uh, Overseers of states, of, of the United States. They feel very joyous when they visit from General Headquarters and, Overseers of the states, they, you’re a great blessing to them. When I got here, my mind was blank. Clean. I, I feel that I can, I can still say that. I love every one of us. I love you in the love of the Lord. Then if God selects a man, a brother, I will submit myself to him. I’m going to obey God. I don’t feel nothing in my heart towards anyone. But I want to read this part of the scripture. I, I have been, uh, fighting coming up to the front. Verse 35 says, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” Hallelujah. I believe that we all have a, a, a way of identifying ourselves, whether, whether it be religious groups, uh, uh, uh, commercial chains, uh, big companies. They all, they all have a, a, a form of identifying themselves. They might have a seal. Uh, uh, uh, they might have a saying, a phrase. I believe that the whole, The Church of God, this is what identifies The Church of God. That we are The Church of God, if we love one another… Let our hearts be clean. I was reading the story of David. When David was, uh, uh, anointed. Saul, uh, uh, uh, persecuted him a lot, but one day the day came, David was placed in his throne. Uh, uh, uh, all the friends of, of, of Saul, uh, the family of Saul, they were fearful because David was, uh, because David was named king. Uh, the custom of that time was, when a king took, uh, office, they had to, they had to, uh, eliminate all the family of, of that other, uh, they, they would have to, uh, uh, uh, destroy that, the other families. And the family of Saul were fearful, and the friends of Saul were fearful, but Dav-, uh, but David was a, elected king by God because God knew, because they know that David was going to be a king of love, and, and, and mercy. Uh, 1 Samuel, chapter 9.
Interpreter’s mistake: “Now there was a man of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath…” Oh, I’m sorry.
Bañuelos: “And David said, Is there yet any that is left of the house of Saul, that I may shew him kindness for Jonathan's sake? And there was of the house of Saul a servant whose name was Ziba. And when they had called him unto David, the king said unto him, Art thou Ziba? And he said, Thy servant is he. And the king said, Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God unto him? And Ziba said unto the king, Jonathan hath yet a son, which is lame on his feet. And the king said unto him, Where is he? And Ziba said unto the king, Behold, he is in the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, in Lo-debar. Then king David sent, and fetched him out of the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, from Lo-debar. Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant! And David said unto him, Fear not: for I will surely shew thee kindness for Jonathan thy father's sake, and will restore thee all the land of Saul thy father; and thou shalt eat bread at my table continually” (2 Samuel 9:7). When, uh, Joseph was sold, and after, uh, Joseph identified himself to his brothers after many years—and he was the one that was governing Egypt at the time—when he identified himself with them, uh, they were fearful. Joseph, the one that they had sold, now he was, uh, the governor, and the life, their life was in his hands. But Joseph went to them, and he hugged them and he cried, and he cried with them, and he said, “Don’t be fearful.” And I feel like we shouldn’t be fearful in this place! I don’t care what it is, whatever God wants. I don’t think that we should be fearful! We should not be fearful. Uh, we just want God’s will to be done. We just want to obey God in everything. God bless you. I love you in the love of Jesus.
S. Smith: I believe we’re getting back in the Spirit, here. We don’t want anything that’s unedifying from here on. Let all our words be edifying and encouraging, and be used to help us on the upward way into God’s presence. Brother Wilda has asked to address us. I forgot about these microphones on the sides. You can come up here, or you can use that one, either one, Brother Wilda.
Wilda: I, I’ll feel more comfortable up there—I can do it here.
S. Smith: You’re sure?
Wilda: Yeah. I would like to give us just a brief history lesson, as briefly as I can. I don’t know, a lot of us came from another organization, and that this is just a continuation of the same Church that A. J. Tomlinson found. In, uh, 1992, there are people in this room besides myself, that we met to, uh, including our General Overseer, Robert Pruitt. And also in the Headquarters Complex, that met to defend the doctrine of The Church of God. We were, uh, described then as rebels. But thanks God, that The Church of God is alive and well. We came here to this Presbytery meeting, and there were people carrying things of distrust in their heart. But we need to thank God, because the Holy Ghost is melting our hearts together. As I said when I first started, I have nothing in my heart against anyone. Our adversary is not a person, our adversary is the devil. Now, some of us were the first, but that don’t mean anything. The point is, we’re all brothers together today. And The Church of God is going on. And I feel that, in, I feel I was hurt already in this Presbytery meeting. But there’s been a reconciliation. There’s been a healing. And it’s behind us. That which was a stumbling stone, had been turned into a stepping stone. And I feel that we’re very close to hearing from the Holy Ghost. Hallelujah. This thing’s going to go on and we must bear in mind, there’s not a single one of us qualified. But whom the Holy Ghost chooses, He’s going to qualify. And his skin does not have to be white. We have had some problems expressed in the Presbytery, and Brother Forbes has a good explanation. He said it’s an American problem. But it’s no problem any more, Brother Forbes. I feel the Lord. And I thank God for every pioneer. I’ve 65 years I’ve served the Lord in The Church of God. And I’m older than that. I wasn’t born into it. I was born and, and then I later got saved, you know. But I don’t mind telling you, during this Presbytery meeting, my heart has been grieved. But I can also tell you now, there’s victory. Because there’s been a reconciliation. Hallelujah. And I thank God for that. And I know that there’s other pioneers that could tell all kinds of war stories, but The Church of God is alive. And the Holy Ghost is going to give us direction in just a few minutes. I believe in just a few minutes. Hallelu—we’ve got to have this reconciliation before the Holy Ghost can move. But I thank God for every one of my brothers. It don’t make any difference when you found it. The fact is, you have found it….
Wilda: And no matter what happens, I feel that I can work with any one of you, without any doubt, or without any distrust. That’s from my heart. And I thank God for, just, sharing, allowing me to share this with you. It’s been a hard battle. But we’re on the threshold of the greatest move of God that The Church of God has ever known. And it is no longer business as usual. Let’s all present to the Lord a vessel that He can use.
S. Smith: Amen. Someone might be concerned about the world hearing the, the recordings of everything we’ve said and done here. But that really doesn’t worry me a great deal. When we read our Bibles, and we see those 12 men that Jesus picked, we watch their lives for 3 years, they had a lot of problems. Had one among them that betrayed the Lord. Peter denied the Lord. Thomas doubted the Lord. The, all the disciples contended among themselves for position and greatness. But those same disciples, when they got it right, when they got where they needed to be, they turned the whole world upside down. Hallelujah. And folks, that’s what matters. And that’s what we’re headed for. What we will do now is have one prayer. If God has laid someone on your heart, you examine that during this prayer. And then we want you to feel free to present that to the Presbytery. And we’ll take two or three recommendations—we don’t want to get so many we can’t stay focused. And then we’ll go from there. But above all else, men, we want a divine move from heaven. Let’s go on our knees and… Excuse me one—were you wanting to speak? I’m sorry. One more time. Brother Jernigan.
Jernigan: If it would be appropriate… This has been on my heart for a couple of days. In the beginning of this prayer, uh, could we lift up our former General Overseer, Bishop Pruitt? It’s been heavy on my heart for a couple of days. He’s served the Church faithfully and did a wonderful job and it could be that he needs our prayer right now. And I think it would be a great honor for us to honor him with prayer today.
S. Smith: Thank you, Brother Jernigan. Absolutely. Let’s pray first for our former General Overseer, and then we’ll ask God to give us the Overseer He wants to serve ‘til the Assembly. And the desire of our heart is to find the one God wants to carry us on. If we can, if we can find God’s man, it’ll be easy at the Assembly. Let’s seek God.
(Prayer: 1:35pm—1:41pm)
Castellanos: Jose Castellanos. I think, uh…come forward. We have to fear the Lord. I can tell you hear, every time we come I, every time, single time I come up I fear, uh, to say the wrong thing, and be the cause to grieve the Spirit. Brothers, something before we go ahead and proceed I just got to say, I don’t want to grieve the beautiful Spirit we have. But before I came from California, and I had, uh, uh, some phone calls from other organizations outside The Church of God, and saying, “We’re waiting on you guys. We’re waiting on you guys.” And I just feel, brothers, that we got to get it right. We have to get it right. I know that we are preparing for the inflow. I want to say, if, if we getting the wrong man, I think that would hinder or delay that inflow. People, fellow members, let’s get it right. Let’s put aside all the feelings that you might have for a specific individual. And make sure that the person you have in your heart, it was the Holy Ghost that gave you that person in your heart. It depends a lot, people are depending on us to get it right. Believe me, I’ve never seen another time when people are looking toward The Church of God. And I want to get it right. I want to have what the, the person in the office, Brother Moderator, whoever the Holy Ghost wants in that office, because then we are preparing for the inflow…be a beautiful, beautiful sight. And I’m ready for that, ain’t you? Help us, Lord. Let’s, let’s come up here when you say that name, fear the Lord. One more time and I will conclude. Let it be from God, not let it be from man. Man will fail, but God lead us. Thank you, brothers.
S. Smith: God bless you.
D. Smith: Dewayne Smith. In the fear of the Lord, and under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, I would like to nominate Brother Jerry Campbell as our General Overseer.
S. Smith: We’re going to give you some time, sort through your heart.
(Long pause and quiet prayers)
S. Smith: Are there any other recommendations? Brother Acosta?
Acosta: Donaldo Acosta. I’ve been praying to God. I’m not going to deny that I felt fear. This prayer that was made, uh, this last prayer that was made. Uh, the, the, and the words that Brother Jose said that we need to, not to be…scared. Uh, but I, I, I, I have that, this name in my mind. I told another brother, I says, “You come forward and make a nomination.” I want to feel here in my heart, this is what I’m feeling, this is the fear that I have, because it’s a blessing for the Church. At this moment, I feel like I’m touching something very sacred. I would like to, uh, this, this responsibility that I have, I would like to consider, or nominate Ray Dupre.
S. Smith: I’m, I’m not going to rush this part of this. If God has laid someone on your heart that you’d like us to consider and you believe it’s from the Lord.
Estep: I’m Donald Estep. I would like to recommend Brother Paul Jernigan.
S. Smith: Alright. We’ve had three recommendations here.
Cannon: As I was praying and seeking God.
Castellanos: Say, say your name first, sir.
Cannon: My name is H. L. Cannon. I want to nominate James C. Nabors.
Voices: …
S. Smith: I, I don’t object. I don’t know how far we want to go. Brother Aviles, go right ahead.
Aviles: No…
S. Smith: No, please. No, it’s on your heart and I’d like to—it’s going, we’ve got some sorting to do here in our discussion, our prayers.
Aviles: Before he came up to the front I was going to nominate James Nabors.
S. Smith: Alright, we have that nomination then.
Aviles: Yes.
S. Smith: Okay. Thank you. Alright. Alright, we’ve got, uh, four men here who have been recommended.
Pimentel: God bless you, brothers, and God, uh, keep us. Juan Pimentel, Dominican Republic. I feel in my heart, brother, that the, the, the well being of the Church, and that we continue, uh, doing the business of the Church, I feel in my heart, nominating Brother Nabors, James Nabors.
S. Smith: Now, brethren, we can only can accept one nomination for a person. So, if there’s anyone else. We have Brother Nabors, we have Brother Jernigan, we have Brother Dupre, and Brother Campbell. Is there any new nominations?
Coronel: Juan Coronel. I feel like we’re all seeking, uh, things, uh, the things of God. In respect to our moderator, uh, he has been nominated, uh, before. Uh, we, he was, uh, nominated and elected because he was by himself. And the other two rescinded their nomination. I’ve, God has also worked, uh, working in our brother, or moderator. And that’s a, a good sign. And I feel like he could, uh, lead us to the General Assembly just like he’s doing here today. I nominate, uh, Steve, Stephen Smith.
Aviles: We got two Smiths here, so you nominate Brother Stephen? He nominates Brother Stephen Smith.
S. Smith: We have five here. This certainly reveals that there’s a great variety of thought. Not division, but feelings about who should lead us. If there was another one, I’m not, we, we can open this to discuss all of these. If none of these work, we’ll do something different, and try to find our way in the Lord here. Brother Gaddis.
Aviles: Brother Gaddis.
S. Smith: Brother Gaddis, thank you.
Gaddis: Louis Gaddis. I’m in fear of the Lord as I’m before you here today, standing. And we all know how serious this business is. And the Holy Ghost can separate one man. And, uh, there’s been one young man on my mind, and when I say young man, it doesn’t mean that he’s a novice. Uh, ten, nine, ten years ago, I was here at Headquarters, teaching BTI. One morning this young man was on program, and he brought a sermonette. He was speaking about A. J. Tomlinson. And this, as this young man was under that anointing of the Holy Ghost, I felt like the Lord showed me at this time, that would be the General Overseer at one time. Makes me think about what Divinci said when he couldn’t, the airplane invention failed with him. He said, “If not for me in my time, another in his time.” It may not be at this time, the Interim Overseer that we select now could not make it through the next General Assembly, for whatever reason God chooses. But, this feeling has never left me. And so, I’m going to present the name and let the Presbytery, through the Holy Ghost deal with it, and then I’ll be free from this burden. Before I call his name, I would like to also say, that he is not a bishop. But neither was Brother M. A. Tomlinson. But if God’s in this, then I want to present the name to you of Michael Jernigan. I think he has an outstanding record. God bless you.
Aviles: I want to make a, a correction…said that he elected. That was my mistake. He did not say that.
S. Smith: I think what we, um, the word we, the proper word we should use—and I’ve missed this already, too—is we’re making recommendations—not nominations, but recommendations. We may be getting more than we can, can hope to discuss if we don’t, uh, end at some point. Are you ready to end this and talk about these for a while, and then go from there?
Lester: Brother Moderator, Ralph Lester. You were talking here, you said about ending this, and then talking about these people. I feel the one we need to be talking to is God… Because you don’t know what the qualification is and I don’t either. And we agreed earlier that we would let the Holy Ghost pick the man. I, I cannot agree to talking about these people, and I, and I don’t think it’s right to talk about them. When M. A. Tomlinson was selected, they didn’t talk about him. They didn’t talk about S. O. Gillespie. But they simply sought, the Lord told them what to do. And then Brother Lowman, uh, withdrew his, uh, what he had wanted. And so I feel that we don’t need to be talking about to, about them, what they are, how they come about, but if, God knows who He wants of all of them. And if it’s none of these, God could bring a man to us.
S. Smith: Yeah, before there’s any discussion we’re certainly going to go to prayer. And if we entertain—we talk about entertain discussion. We’re not talking about negative talk about people. There’s no room for that. We’re just trying to discern who God has chosen. If I, if I understand what I’ve read right, in 1943, I believe that meeting was about 2 hours and 16 minutes, if I remember right. Is that correct, or am I mistaken? And, of course, as I read that to you here today, it was about, probably 15 minutes of reading. So we don’t really know everything that went on during that time period. But it does seem to me, from the record we do have, there was not any negative talk. And somehow, God was able to lead them and help them, in a positive way, to have the one that God chose surface. Has anyone else got any suggestions here before we go any farther—how, how, as far as how to proceed here? I’m sorry. Yes, I, come right—I think he was just ahead of you. Come right up, Brother Forbes, right behind him. We’re, we’re just looking. We’re just trying to find our way here.
Ramos: God bless every one of you’s. Bonito Ramos, from Bolivia. I want to read a, a, a scripture in the book of Acts, uh, chapter 1, and verse 16. Uh, chapter 1, verse 16 in Acts. And the Word of God says…
Aviles: You want to read it, Brother Smith?
S. Smith: Verse 16, is that the only one he read?
Aviles: 1 and 16, yes, it’s the only one he read.
Ramos: “Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry” (vv.16,17). It, it, it says here that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, he spoke through the mouth of David, the Spirit, of what, uh, Judas was going to do. And the Holy Ghost can speak here. Those that are, are baptized with the Holy Ghost, He can speak through them here. And God can confirm, uh, one way or the other, the Holy Ghost will confirm who He wants. Thank you.
S. Smith: That’s right.
Forbes: George C. Forbes. Seeing that we have already, uh, picked these individuals, I would suggest that we leave that up to the Holy Ghost, to confirm only once, and that wouldn’t be by discussing those individuals, but by finding the mind of God through prayer.
S. Smith: We’re just looking for the fulfillment of the scripture that it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost, and to us. And whatever God wants, I have no doubt He’s going to unite our minds and our hearts in that, too. And when those two things come together, we’re all going to be able to rejoice in the Lord. Why don’t we quit talking and start praying. Let’s just do it. Let’s start asking God to deal with our hearts in any way He wants to help us, and He’ll direct us right now.
(Prayer: 2:08pm—2:19pm)
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